TRAP: The Real Adviser Podcast

49 - Universal Marketing Truths

• Alan Smith; Andy Hart; Carl Widger; Nick Lincoln • Episode 49

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Della Voce was bobbing along lost somewhere in the Atlantic; Storyteller was in an internet-lousy Turkey. So we had a guest host in Samantha Russell, a “Chief Evangelist” or something. Check out her profile here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samanthacrussell/recent-activity/all/

In this latest pile of TRAP, the Trap Pack discuss

  • Topical issues, including the Euros, TRAP’s first award (yes, really), IRIS, JP Morgan Guide to Retirement, Powerball winners fleeced, humans trusted more than AI (no shit), Schroders Adviser Survey 2024, Tavistock v Titan, 
  • Meat and Potatoes: Universal Marketing Truths
  • Questions posted by our beloved TRAPist Jake: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-parsons1664
  • Culture Corner

Links referred to in the show:

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Unknown:

Music, welcome to the real advisor podcast, T, R, A, P, trap. Please follow us and join in the conversation on Twitter at advisor podcast, where you can suggest ideas and themes you'd like the trap team to discuss. Also, remember to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a six out of five star review on iTunes. Doing all this really, really helps us, which means we can do more to help you. Now, let's head over to the studio for the latest pile of trap.

Nick Lincoln:

Yes, indeed, dear TRAPPIST, welcome back to what many people are calling episode 49 of the award winning real advisor podcast, T, R, A, P, Trapp. My name is lick nincom. Joining me in the digital studio of doom are two of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Alan, the storyteller, Smith and the ultra heart the three, the third amigo Carl della vocci. Would he can't be with us. He's currently floating in a pedalo lost somewhere off the Portuguese coast in the Atlantic. We wish Carl well. He's out there with clan clan wadja On week 17 of his 50th birthday celebrations. But standing in for car a very exciting moment. We have an honorary member of the trap pack from Pennsylvania in the US of A we have Samantha Russell. Samantha, welcome to trap. Thank you very much for taking the time to be part of this absolute car crash of a show.

Samantha Russell:

Thank you so much for having me. It's

Nick Lincoln:

an absolute pleasure for those who don't know you in the UK financial services community, Sam, just tell us a bit about yourself.

Samantha Russell:

Yeah, so I've been working in the financial services industry in the States for a little over a decade now, and started off my husband and I started a company. It was SaaS so software as a service company, a platform for financial advisors to help them grow using different digital marketing strategies. And we launched that business and grew it for a number of years, and then it was acquired in 2020 by a company also based in the US called FMG, and now I serve as the chief evangelist at FMG. We're just laughing about that title, and really what that just means is I go out on the road a lot, meet with advisors in person, teach them marketing strategies, and then learn what's actually working on the ground for them, and bring it back to our team, and then we create new products around it.

Nick Lincoln:

Fantastic, fantastic. And as you guys would say, We're super excited to have you on the show and to bring a US perspective to the UK and Irish financial services scene. So we hope you enjoy your stint on track. Okay, without any further ado, I think I'm going to hand over to my friend the right honorable mr., Andrew Hart for two more high energy review reads. Andrew, crack on.

Andy Hart:

Thank you very much, Nick and welcome Sam. Okay, the first review is entitled, thought provoking. Five stars, a podcast full of lively discussions and great debates. I just hope that the FCA and compliance officers listen to this too. Just a little less banter about the Welsh rugby team, please. Great work, guys from the hallcroft, I believe that's Helen Holcroft. Welcome. Helen. Final review is entitled, insightful content with the bike. Five stars, howcroft. Howcroft. Helen, howcroft. Okay, let's move on. Entitled, insightful content with the bike. Five stars. Love this format and the interaction between the four, aka piss, taking great content and delivered in a meaningful way, not theory, but practical. As an accountant, I want to understand more about what real financial advisors really do, and how I can better join the dots between what I do and what they do to better serve business owners and the families. This really is a must listen for accountants as well as financial advisors. Mark Telford at Kent underscore accountant on Twitter. Thank you very much, Mark. That's a huge praise for the show. Back to you, Nick.

Nick Lincoln:

Great stuff. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. He's a big booster of the show, and thank you to all of you that do submit the reviews. It gives us a shot in the arm, and it's greatly appreciated. So please do keep on firing them in Okay, let's give this episode a topical timestamp, Episode 49 there's been some, as Samantha would say, soccer tournament going on on the conference. Andrew, you wish to talk about it

Andy Hart:

very briefly, yeah, so I'm nursing somewhat of a hangover. It's been a very eventful weekend in England. Everyone's been barbecuing yesterday, watching the game late at night, but unfortunately, it's not coming home. Spain picked us. They're a much better team, but it could have nearly gone to extra time, but it didn't anyway. So the Euros are not coming home. But Samantha, you were telling us about your Euro trip recently. So do you want to add some? Yeah, it was some insight.

Samantha Russell:

I just have to say too. I don't know all the technical terms, but how about that play where, with all the headbutting back and forth at the goal, like. That was so

Alan Smith:

exciting, isn't it?

Samantha Russell:

Yeah, that was my kids, who are eight, six and two are all screaming violently at the TV because they're huge England fans. They all have all the kits. They're they're real excited. So yes, not the, not the ending we all wanted. But yeah, we were in Europe for two and a half weeks, just came back about a week and a half ago, and went to multiple countries. And it was so fun because we, you know, watched Italy play in Italy in a bar with, you know, very late at night with all the horns going off. And we watched Switzerland in a huge square with 3000 Swiss fans. So we it was a real fun experience, and the kids are now 100% hooked. My son thinks he's going to come to Manchester and go to an academy and play.

Nick Lincoln:

It's easy, Sam, it's easy. Nobody else wants to do it. You just rock up and roll in the team. There's

Andy Hart:

no competition in the I'm pretty sure the rest of Europe were cheering on Spain, so I'm pleased we had a couple of stragglers cheering on England in the US. But yeah, it's not coming home. Back to you. Nick,

Nick Lincoln:

okay, good stuff. I should have said the outset as well. Sam's coming from Pennsylvania. Storytelling. Where are you? So you're not in you're not in the never south.

Alan Smith:

No, I'm in place I go to every year I'm in Turkey. So a few miles, this is, this really is quite an international show this time, isn't it, from the US to Turkey to the dark end of North Watford to wherever heart lives. Yeah, let me just, I'll shoehorn the the idea of this holiday into investment investment advice, because we go to the same place on holiday with my other half and my children every year, the same hotel at the same time of year. And some might say it's a bit dull. It's a bit boring. It's a bit like buying a global equity index fund. It's a bit dull, but guess what? It does the job. It just works for us. There's something for everyone. We all join. My children have grown up coming here, so when they've first came here, they were young. They were toddlers. Now they're much older, and it's just one of these places that ticks all the boxes for all of us. So on the basis that if it ain't broke, why try to fix it? We come back to the same place every year. And for anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a year, I'm pleased to announce that because I I did record the podcast in this very room 12 months ago. It must have been whatever episode that was, and if you haven't heard it, go back or maybe just give it a miss, because there was a smoke alarm in the room and it was one of the battery had run out, so every 60 seconds it was a beep. And I didn't think it would come through. I didn't think it'd get picked up on the mic, but it did, and there were people who were listening to the podcast. Everyone was walking around. They thought it was in their own homes we're going around trying to change the batteries in their smoke alarms at home. So I'm pleased to report that all smoke alarms are working. Batteries are filled and up to date. So yeah, quite an international show this time. It's unique. Okay, great

Nick Lincoln:

stuff. So I think Samantha, you said you listened to our most recent episode. I want to put you on the spot here, or maybe not. But in Episode 48 the trap pack were talking about the award season and awards for financial advisors. I'm sure, in the USA, your RIAs have had big awards as well, where they they can put things up on the walls to show their clients they were voted Best XYZ in this category, and blah, blah, blah, and we were kind of scathing about them. Well, lo and behold, in the last couple of weeks, there's the real advisor podcast has somehow won its first award,

Samantha Russell:

and we paid now. You're the biggest fans of

Nick Lincoln:

love awards. Absolutely love them. We actually got the trophies. It's winging its way down from the northwest to us, hopefully. But yeah, bizarrely So Andrew, describe what the award was and describe why you weren't there for the first time ever,

Andy Hart:

I believe it's called the Basel awards, or basil awards that they do at the next gen planners conference every single year. I think I've been for the last seven years, but I missed this one outside a couple of prior engagements. But yeah, this year she did send me an email telling my come in. And I said, No, I'm busy, etc. Anyway, we won an award. Someone collected the award that none of us knew, which was interesting. But anyway, yeah, we won an award. So that's all good. So thank you very much. Next Gen us.

Alan Smith:

It was a perfect trap type situation. We didn't even know we'd entered the award. We won the award, and no one was there to collect the award. It was pure

Andy Hart:

shamble. It was just absolutely our phone just lit up from like random people that were in the audience. Are you guys here? Yeah, no, no,

Unknown:

there we go. Sorry, I

Alan Smith:

had to find absolute shambles. There we go. One more time, absolute sham in the audience, course was,

Nick Lincoln:

was Amelia, who was another guest Track Pack host, and they could have given the award to her, but they didn't. So never mind. Okay, all good. We are now the award winning track pack. So Sam. Uh, you have got a study. Oh, God, Alan will like this, because AI is is his thing as well. Samantha, tell us about the the northern Northwestern Mutual study. Yeah, I

Samantha Russell:

just saw this over the weekend. Someone else had shared it, I think, on Twitter, and then I x, sorry, I can never get used to say x, I don't know if you do that. Um, so it was from Northwestern Mutual, and it actually, there's a lot of good data in the study. Overall. They broke it down into different areas, but they had a question over, who do you trust more in different scenarios, AI, or humans? And you know, for all the buzz about overtaking everything, the questions were like creating a retirement plan, asking a financial question, just asking a question and getting the correct answer, managing a budget, providing financial savings, tips, all these different questions, who would you trust more? And humans won out significantly across the board, versus AI. And you know, obviously I think over we're it's still so new. It's the Wild West. Things will change as time goes on, but it still just goes to show the trustworthy factor of AI and I thought that it was interesting, the number of people actually though, who also said they trusted they didn't know who to trust, or both the same. So humans were getting about 50% overall. So about 50% of people, they just don't even know who to trust with their financial questions at all, whether it's a human or a robot.

Nick Lincoln:

Wow, sorry if you said this and I didn't listen to I apologize. Sam, were these people being interviewed? Were these clients of advisors? Or was that not? Does that unknown? It

Samantha Russell:

was so there was a mix. So there was a significant number of people who currently work with an advisor, and then a bunch of others who are in the process of looking for one. I think they said of the people interviewed, 38% were currently looking for an advisor. And actually, that was another tidbit that was interesting. So they said, over time, historically, the average age when someone engages an advisor for the first time in the US. It's just about 40 but that is significantly changing now, with this next generation starting around 29 so almost a whole decade earlier. Okay, that

Andy Hart:

is interesting. I used to always think it's about 47 people see sought retirement advice, if that makes sense, 47% now age 47 prior, prior, prior to that. They're busy with, you know, family work, their mortgages and stuff, and then they wake up one day like 47 think, Jesus, I actually might live to 100 What am I gonna do

Alan Smith:

about this? The challenge with a lot of these surveys is if they get if they're asking binary questions to, who do you prefer? And surely the answer is a tech enabled human that's got to be the which is really the best solution and the ball, right? I mean, the analogy I always think about and things like this, is it. I believe it's possible for an aircraft, a civilian aircraft, to fly across countries without a human pilot on board. They have the technology to take off land and do everything. But I'm not going to be first in the queue to get on one of those planes without a pilot, without a human being, but, but I'm also not going to be keen to go if it's got no technology on it, either. So that's kind of where we are, where we're headed to they had some

Samantha Russell:

interesting stats in there. They said 40% of the people they surveyed are either somewhat or very trusting of AI taking over for umpires and referees and professional sports. And 35% said they would be comfortable with it taking over for a nurse collecting information, like medical histories at a doctor's visit. And so they, like went through all they kind of benchmarked it against other industries. And it was interesting, finance was still one that was lowest of the low. Like people were more comfortable having AI be their nurse than their financial advisor,

Andy Hart:

that's interesting. Yeah. I

Alan Smith:

mean, I've seen studies on things like radiology. We've historically had a human being looking at a scan, looking at, you

Andy Hart:

know, details are way better now on computers as far, they're

Alan Smith:

far, far better than, uh, excuse me. Yeah, anyway, sorry.

Unknown:

Cleaners, classic,

Andy Hart:

right, nudging on.

Nick Lincoln:

Oh no, put your camera on. Alan, if he's still there, Alan, then you're next on the topical tip, bitch, my friend, so reflections on episode 48

Andy Hart:

Okay, well, if he Okay, yeah, can

Alan Smith:

you hear me? Yeah? All right, 48 club, yeah. I was, I thought I'd just spend a few moments, because our Yeah, I think the previous episode when we talked about this whole thing about attitude to risk, and what actually is risk, and the confusion that seems to be very much part of our sector between risk and volatility and all those sort of things. So we put out the episode. There was obviously a lot of commentary on social media. And I was, I was kind of surprised, I must say, by it's quite a lot of pushback from advisors saying, you know, don't necessarily agree. Are you with you? Someone was saying, No, we measure volatility. We talk to clients about risk. And I was saying, how do you measure what is your measure of risk? How do you define it? How do you explain it? And somebody said, was an annualized volatility. We use something called dynamic planner. I think it was, I think of something like that, which, again, full confession, I don't know. I don't use it, haven't used it, but they were saying the annualized volatility is what we use to build our investment portfolios. So in other words, a 12 month cycle, and if something sort of is too volatile turns up and down, then they might not be able to recommend it to a client who's expressed, you know, an aversion to risk. And it's this kind of weird mixture. And it reminded me, you know, that we talk about the study comes out the US, thanks to JP Morgan study, and they put it out quite regularly, and they've got the, I think it's the s, p, but it probably applies. I think there's a FTSE one as well, and it shows the intra year declines in any year, the average intra year, so during the course of any 12 month period, from from peak to trough, the average is, what is it? 12? 14%

Andy Hart:

somewhere 15. Now it used to be minus point, yeah,

Alan Smith:

minus 15. So in any given average four years, average year, that's what you're going to have. And so that is going to preclude people from investing in equities. If you say, I can't have a 12 month cycle, I couldn't stand if my portfolio fell by 15% even though it recovered, even though very often the end, you end the year high, up, up, frequently, up, then you're going to deny yourself access to the as we call it, the greatest wealth creation machine in the world, which is global activities. I just, I was just, I must say, I was a bit surprised by advisors. Obviously, you're well intentioned, but then everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I was surprised by the pushback we got, or I got. I

Andy Hart:

mean, the pushback is not surprising. There's certain things you talk about on social media, and everyone just kicks off about it, active, passive, fees, attitude, to risk, et cetera. They're sort of honey traps for advisors, aren't they? The other thing as well, some people push back with you were saying about but what would a client do in March 2020 Well, loads of clients were in March 2020 and none of my clients did anything. So it was a temporary decline. I know it was an extreme, temporary decline, extreme temporary advance. But well, what did your clients do? People that are comment on it, hopefully nothing. Because, again, they didn't crystallize a permanent loss. You know, it's writing this stuff out. It's anyway,

Unknown:

you know,

Alan Smith:

I just got to link a couple of conversations to you, the last ones that Sam raised about that research and the technology and the AI. And I think what we are trying to do, part of the sort of narrative around this podcast is explained that this is as much an art, possibly more of an art than it is a science, the science and spreadsheets and the AI machines and all those things and those dynamic planners, or whatever they called will tell you the data to say this portfolio fell by 30% in 2020, whatever, whatever's good, but the art is that uniquely human part that we all show up and do we have healthy adult conversations with our clients and we remind them? And honestly, if you're not, if you're not doing that, then AI will disrupt you. All you are doing is repeating what it says on the spreadsheet or whatever, then you will get disrupted. So many problems

Andy Hart:

in this business exist in spreadsheets, but they don't exist in real life. That is the problem.

Samantha Russell:

Well, don't you also think, though, that one of the issues is what people say they want or say they're going to do is drastically different from what they actually do, you know? So you can tell somebody, ask somebody, how much risk can you tolerate? And their answer is obviously very different than when they're feeling it. And the same thing with implementation. I saw a study the other day, and it's gonna escape me, but it was, it was something crazy, like more than 50 or 60% of recommendations that an advisor gives do not get implemented, in general, because the person leaves the meeting and they're like, this sounds great, but then they don't actually do it. And so I think huge part of it, that's horrendous. I can't make you do it. That's terrible.

Nick Lincoln:

Over half of the recommendations don't get implemented.

Samantha Russell:

I'll find it.

Andy Hart:

And also DIY platforms, obviously, clients, can make direct mistakes because there's low friction between them and mistakes. Having an advisor there, there's high friction between the client and the mistake, and we've got to be proud about that. There's high frictions to lots of stuff with with an advised sort of service. But that's good, you know. Fa,

Samantha Russell:

it was an essay mag article. It said 70% of clients implement less than 20% of recommendations.

Unknown:

Wow, wow.

Nick Lincoln:

That's that's some bad that's some bad advisors. As Alan said, this art versus science thing is a big thing for me. I think a lot more of it than we realize is art than science. And if you're the trusted advisor. Clients will do whatever you tell them, because it's you telling them, it's, it's, it's Samantha Russell telling them, it's Nick Lincoln, it's, it's, they don't understand what we're talking about half the time. They never will understand it, but they're just mentally they're just saying, okay, Nick has told me to do this. We trust Nick. We're just going to do it. I mean, I don't get pushed back on any of my recommendations, really. I just maybe when you're cutting your teeth, when you enter the profession, and you're learning how to, how to phrase things and frame things and so forth. But after a while, if they're it's almost a red flag. If a client doesn't take up a recommendation, it's like, well, we're not going to work together. Because I if you, if I keep on giving you my best advice and you keep on declining it, there's no relationship there. I don't care what the fee is. I don't care about anything else. There's, there's, we don't have a working relationship, therefore it's over. You

Andy Hart:

are a very mature advisor, Nick in every sense of the word, my friend. You know,

Alan Smith:

I mentioned there's a book I read, I might use it in future as a culture called book I've read over here by a guy called David C Baker. So he's not in our industry. He's a consultant, you know, he advises companies and all sorts of things. And he's a solo advisor, consultant. He's written lots of books, and I reckon I said I sent it to you, Nick, you should read. It's very Nick Lincoln esque. I think it is, because it's kind of my way the highway. But he talked, there's an entire chapter about being an order taker, and, in other words, not being an order taker. There are some consultants. Call it advisors. Call it the client says, I want this. And they go, Okay, I will go and get that for you. Instead of going, hang on a minute. Why do you want this? Why do you think that's good? And I've got a difference. I've got a different professional opinion, and I think you should do something else. And those are the best advisors. Those are the best consultants. And there isn't a lot of value in being an order taker and executing on a client who doesn't know. Can't by definition, can't know as much as you do. Can't as much experience

Nick Lincoln:

an AI will eat you alive. They're designed to take orders and process them and execute. They always get it wrong. Yeah, it's

Samantha Russell:

really interesting, too. From a marketing perspective, how many people come to a marketing agency or company and they're like, this is what I like. This is what I want my website to look like. This is going to be all about me, and they totally miss the mark of it doesn't matter what you like. The whole point is, what will the people you're trying to attract respond to? And they don't, you know, they almost think of marketing and their website and their logo and all these different elements as just more about art on the wall or something that they like, that they want to look at, and it they totally missed the point of designing to capture the audience you're trying to attract.

Nick Lincoln:

Totally okay, so 22 minutes in time is flying by. A quick one here, Sam, you're welcome to tune out this for the next two minutes, because it can turn concerns UK taxation, which is not quite as horrendous as your taxation in the IRS, but it's still very complicated. And there's a good software package that I found through one of the members of the IFA forum. Have I mentioned the IFA forum? Tiny.cc/ifa Forum. Thank you. Nick Evans, it's called not IRS, but IR is or IRS Iris again, not to be confused with IRS, which was the back office package I R, I S, I put into the social standards. Basically, it does tax returns for you. It's 10 quid a month, and it's just, if you've got clients, they've got income from their own cashing units from a GIA. So there are dividend implications and capital gains tax implications. If they're taking their state pension, maybe they've got a business still they're taking salary dividends. It just works it out for you in the order that things get taxed, and it's becoming more important now than ever. We're not We're not accountants when we don't tend to be accountants. But if you can show a client a copy of their self assessment before the event, more or less, which you can do if you just make this estimates about their incomes and so forth, it's really neat, and it lays it out in the same order as a client self assessment, 10 quid a month. Really nice tax planning tool.

Andy Hart:

Sorry, just to clarify, Nick, do you use this as a professional? You come across a client in a certain situation, you pump the numbers in. It gives you some information. I just

Nick Lincoln:

want to know that my understanding of the how capital gains tax interacts with the dividend allowance interacts with the savings and that, you know, savings interest now becoming a meaningful thing for the first time in 15 years, clients are like earning 1000s of pounds, potentially from their savings income. But of course, if you're a high earner, that could take your income over the 100k which leads into personal allowance, it's just things like that you just forget about, because it's not been relevant for years and years. So just putting that into a bit of software that breaks it all down for you. I mean, voyant can do it, but it's not designed to be that. It's just not user friendly. So Iris, I would definitely recommend spending 10 quid a month on that. Quid a month on that. And yes, not, not the IRS. My parents used to work in the US. Sam and my dad still gets he's he left 20 years ago. He still gets nasty correspondence

Andy Hart:

from the very invasive, yeah.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, so Ultra the next thing on the topic of bits, uh, yes, the JP Morgan Guide to Retirement. I'm

Andy Hart:

not sure if this has cropped up on the show before. It probably has, but it comes out every year. They the famous JP Morgan guide to the markets. Comes out quarterly. US, UK, Europe versions. I believe the JP Morgan Guide to Retirement is again. Retirement planning information overload. So it's worth scrolling through. It's 53 pages long. Says a few pages that will take your eye. The one that sort of hits me quite between the eyes and all my clients we look after, really, is a typical 65 year old couple, couple today, non smokers and in excellent health. The chance of one of them getting to 90 is 73% again, this needs to be factored in when you're having ground up conversations about attitude to investment risk when you're 65 the money does not stop being invested. It's still got multi decades ahead of itself. It still needs to be invested accordingly. So yeah, there's various bits of information in this JP, Morgan, Guide to Retirement, as I say, it's annually at the moment. And the 2024, one might have come out a few months ago, but I just came across it recently. And it's worth a few minutes for you to scroll through any points on that. Yeah,

Alan Smith:

it is. It is very good. They put out a lot of good material, great use of imagery, graphics. You can grab the you know what the point is? They're trying to make really quickly. Could use it with client materials. I think quite well. I always think, and again, I did pick this up from the right honorable Nicholas Lincoln some years ago, that these averages of life expectancy and so on, you can assume that your clients will, on average, live, let's say, five years more than these, which are national averages. Our clients tend to be more affluent, tend to live in better areas, look past themselves. So the percentages, or the expectations, or the the life expectancy, I'd

Andy Hart:

like you to be sold that, sorry, just a hammer at home, the study is picked up on that point. So a 65 year old couple, typically, one of them's getting to 90, it's 43% but however, if they're non smokers and in excellent health, most of our clients assume that it's 73% so they factored that in. That's why I sort of highlighted that point. But yeah, good point. Alan,

Nick Lincoln:

okay, thank you. Okay, next one is me. So Well, Sam, you might, you might even know this story, but you'll certainly know about what Powerball is, which is the sort of state funded lottery. Oh, yeah, yes. And this was an article that appeared in The Wall Street Journal, which is, I do subscribe to it's really good, but it's $14 a month or something. And I put a link to it in the so called show notes. And I think that, I think you can access it because they give you a free link to to share every few days. And that's the should be an open link anyway, this couple, Minnesotan couple, Lutheran lutherian, so religious people. They won 60,000,006 zero on the on the power. Are you familiar with the story sandwich? You

Samantha Russell:

might haven't. I actually haven't heard it yet. No, okay,

Nick Lincoln:

so they won 60 million, and they lost a grandchild to some horrible disease. And they thought, You know what, we're going to put some of our winnings towards a foundation to look into research into this. They gave an advisor, a local advisor, just some Mom and Pop sort of shop guy working for an insurance company. 2626 or 28 million of their 60 million winnings to set up a trust fund to do research into this. Anyway, this guy and so resonate more with you, perhaps Sam, than with the last people, a series of variable annuities, way back when, with big ongoing fees, big upfront commissions, an absolute show. Long story short, years later, that $28 million was worth 26 million it actually declined in the face of a soaring bull market, soaring SMP, the wife, she's passed away. It's just an absolute name of just a story of incentives and conflicts. And this guy was a fee based advisor. He was getting paid through the variable annuities to recommend this tripe, and it's a charity as well. Sounds. My understanding is that variable annuities aren't even that good of a tax point of view for charities you

Samantha Russell:

don't get, I was just gonna say that it's very interesting that they would fund anything for a foundation with a variable annuity.

Nick Lincoln:

Yeah, it's horrible. And, you know, just to compare, not, you know, the advisor concerns taken his own life. So he's not here to defend the advice he gave. So it's just a 60 million they gave half of it to this advisor. Conflict of Interest. We always think the world we're living in is good people, good intentioned people. There are conflicts all the time, but we need, you just need to minimize the conflicts to be able to give good advice. But they're always going to be conflicts. And we think that most of us do that really well, but there are still a large swathe, a large cadre of advisors out there who are doing things the old way and doing it, doing it badly. And I

Samantha Russell:

think you hit on that thing, though, like where the it's so I think one of the things that's so confusing for consumers is there's so many different people with so many models of business, but they're all called financial advisor, and so did the consumer. How do you tell the difference? There was a really good study from the Bank of New York mountain Pershing, and they Pershing, and they said that for the average consumer, it was like 68% cannot tell the difference between the different varieties of advisors, how they get paid incentives. It's it's complicated for us in the industry. I can't imagine what it's like for somebody outside. Who knows, I would

Unknown:

have thought the percentage

Andy Hart:

would be higher. For 88% 98%

Samantha Russell:

low. Yeah, I know it, but it is, it is just very telling. You know, those people probably had no idea what to even look for and how to find somebody who they could trust. What was

Alan Smith:

surprising, though, is I would have thought that the organizers of the Powerball, which the lottery, would have a panel of approved advisors, like they do in the UK, for example, our National Lottery, there is a group of, I don't know, 10 or 20 organizations Close Brothers

Andy Hart:

had the had the tie, and again,

Alan Smith:

I know that Grant Thornton had it for a bit, and some others, I think it's been shared around a few I know one advisor who who picked up a lot of business, I don't know if he still does, and some huge wins and, like, incredibly, you know, 100 million pound win type things. Are

Andy Hart:

you going to be pitching for the lottery advisory panel? Nick,

Nick Lincoln:

I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'd want it, would I really am not sure I'd want it, because you're dealing with people. I imagine if an idiot like me got 100 million pounds or something, it'd be, like, right down the boozer. And I don't care what you're telling me, Well,

Alan Smith:

this is a real issue, because it's a huge psychological issue, because this is, this is this famous thing, sudden well, and it's not like someone who's worked for 25 years building a business and having an exit. This is like yesterday, you know, I was living in a trailer park, and today I've got, you know, and some of the there was a, there's a billion dollar winner. Some guy went over a billion dollars in the Powerball thing in the past. It's huge numbers, and it needs a lot of help, support, you know, psychological advice, any number of things.

Nick Lincoln:

I mean, a lot of the a lot of these people have come to this a massive amounts of money. It always ends up in booze, drugs, hookers, and that's just the upside. So

Alan Smith:

this is English humor from just Sam's giving a straight face there, thinking, when's the punchline?

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, I'm sorry. Let's move on. Ultra

Andy Hart:

I don't know. Fans come across this company advisory ai.com very early for me to check these.

Alan Smith:

Yeah, what do you like to share? What

Andy Hart:

would what would I like to know about them? Yeah, have you looked into them? Yeah, any good?

Nick Lincoln:

This is dynamic. Listening. This is dynamic.

Alan Smith:

I thought you'd added it to it because they look very

Andy Hart:

interesting. It's all part of this new AI software offering for advisors. So, yeah, there is, there is a joining the pack. Yeah, there's

Alan Smith:

a plethora of these. And I think this is one of the issues now, like any emerging technology you've got to, in my opinion, choose one and stick and run with it and not be you know, every time a new one pops up, we've, we've sort of nailed our colors to the mast, which I've mentioned before, Saturn, AI, they're doing some great things. I love the founders there, likewise, great guys. And there are, there's plenty out there. I do. I keep an eye on things when they evolve. I haven't seen anything. Everyone's trying to fix the problem, the so called problem. And it is, it is an issue right now. Of the how do you have a client meeting and then gather the notes, take, you know, look at the action points, segregate information which is sort of soft facts and hard facts, all that stuff. And there's an absolute time saving in doing that. And Saturn does it, and I think advisory AI, and as quite a few others do it as well. And the challenge is to build the entire ecosystem from start to finish. But, you know, fix one problem at a time, I think. And if something pops up that does a completely fixes an entirely different problem than maybe isn't on Saturn or some of these other companies roadmap. Then, of course, we would have a have a look at it. But, yeah, it looks interesting, and it's great. It's great for the industries get great for our sector. We love innovation. We love we've been denied really good innovation in technology for for decades, really. So something, seeing these things come up is great news. So yeah, shout out to advisory. A, i,

Nick Lincoln:

o, X, okay, uh, storyteller. Finn luens, which is not a real world like 10x ing is not some real bloody word, Fin fluences, but now you spent it. You spent it. Finn luensas. Be really careful to read it.

Alan Smith:

I think I was on my second Margarita, and I added it to the docket. No, this again. There is one thing I have. I've got more time in my hands over the last couple of weeks. So I've been, you know, spending more time on X than I probably should have been. And I see these people that pop, which are just complete, you just look at anything, what you know, you you want to just delete it, but then you see it said 4 million views, it's got. You said 700 retweets. It's got. He's had, he's been saved by loads of, loads of people. There's just this, this one, and there's lots of them. This one that caught my eye, did some guy just says it probably is a guy, because it's an anonymous it's just a fin thin, name, influencer, name, why don't you just, you know, if you're 2 million, he said, like, deposit rates are paying 5.25% if you had. $2 million you could just invest that and live off 250,000 a year. Oh, yeah, this

Samantha Russell:

went viral. I

Alan Smith:

saw risk free, yeah, you saw on my LinkedIn, I posted LinkedIn, yeah,

Andy Hart:

but surely it's intentionally,

Nick Lincoln:

you know, he did say that. He did. He did subsequently say I was doing a satire that,

Alan Smith:

yeah, much, much later, by which time, though, because who, who's going to retweet

Andy Hart:

that hooked you line and sinker, but a lot

Alan Smith:

of people saved. Why would you save that? What do you call bookmark it? If you knew just a joke? Why would you bookmark a joke? I mean, and I think ultimately, and maybe that was more extreme, but there's plenty of this around, you know, I think I just read the other day. I don't really follow Instagram, but there's a lot of influencers, influencers on Instagram, and there's a few of them you you might know more. Mr. Ultra, we'll talk about your social media developments in a short time. But I can't remember this. So, I mean, I'm just so old I don't even know the names of these people. They've like someone who's been in a soap opera or love Island or something, but anyway, they've been promoting contact Contracts for Difference and all sorts of shady trading things, and people do? People look up to these individuals and they say, Well, if they're doing it, I'm going to buy, I'm going to invest. And they get wiped out. It's a real problem we've got right now, because I don't think regulators are able to deal with it. They're not regulated by definition. So how can you stop somebody from just saying something overwhelming, the amount of overwhelming, it's a Yeah, it's a problem. So

Nick Lincoln:

okay, we got to get through this quickly. Andy, you're on Tiktok. Is that we

Unknown:

need to say

Andy Hart:

I've started a Tiktok channel. So if anyone's on Tiktok, check me out. Maven advisor. I'm known as the no BS financial advisor. Again, signal through the noise. It's a little bit of a of a joke, but I'm giving it a good crack. So I'm gonna try and do my 30 months on Tiktok. I'm trying to do a video a day anyway, check it out.

Samantha Russell:

You know you should do is just go find all the bad advice I've said. This would be a great strategy. You know how you can, like, respond people's videos just like an overlay. But every day, do an overlay. Here's why this is wrong. Maybe everybody can watch you just, you know, break down all the reasons everybody else's advice is so bad. Like,

Alan Smith:

so do you think that's a legit strategy for an advisor to go after? You think there's business to be had on Tiktok? I mean, I know a lot of

Samantha Russell:

I do. I do. I mean, it's funny, my my parents, my mom, specifically, she probably is on Tiktok an hour a day in the morning while she drinks her coffee. And all my, all my

Andy Hart:

Pennsylvania.

Samantha Russell:

And I think because the videos are easy to share on Facebook, which is where a lot of that Ed, that age group hangs out, so then they, like, would try to click them, and it's like, in order to view you need to sign up on Tiktok. So then they all create Tiktok accounts, and they just get sucked in. Yeah, I think it's

Alan Smith:

known to have by the most powerful algorithm,

Nick Lincoln:

evil, yeah, evil, evil,

Alan Smith:

okay. Thinks of it. What's next? Okay,

Nick Lincoln:

right back to our guest, Sam Edelman, Rick Edelman, or rice Delman, as he says.

Samantha Russell:

Edelman, Financial Engines, yeah, this is they do a report every year, the wealth in America report. This is from 20 this one just came out for 2023 but the delta between wealth and worry and I thought this was really interesting, they looked at what level of assets do you need to feel wealthy versus what level of assets do you need to never worry, to feel like you could never worry about money, which I don't I feel like doesn't matter how wealthy you are. You get to a point, then you just worry about losing your money. But that was the question, and it was interesting, because they said that the delta depends greatly on where you are in life. So the difference is highest for those in their 30s and 40s, where being worry free takes significantly more money, about a million, to never feel like you have to worry about money. But then once you get older, it flip flops, right? So for those in their 60s and beyond, it takes more money to feel wealthy than it does to actually be worry free. So you need less money to just feel content and enjoy your life. And I think this is just interesting for a lot of people who are helping people plan for retirement. You know, a lot of obviously, we need to have the assets to make sure we can take care of our medical issues and live in our home and all those things. But so much of what makes somebody feel less worried in retirement comes down to so many other psychological factors, you know, having community, having hobbies, having purpose. So I just thought that was an interesting piece of that study.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, thank you. It's a bizarre, it's a bizarre pictogram graph at all. I'm looking at that thinking it looks like a dinosaur, doesn't itsaurus that's reaching over to the

Andy Hart:

lake. Very creative of you. Nicholas,

Nick Lincoln:

yeah. And also, there was a subsequent, oh,

Samantha Russell:

there was just another part of. It where they ask people, What are your top concerns right now? And you know, coming in at number one was inflation, 84% current political environment, 80% possible recession, 78% like 77 all the normal things, yeah, yeah. And there, oh, you know what? It's not on this graph, but for in the US specifically, it said, If you could have an advisor, though, help you with anything, I thought it was this one. Sorry, it wasn't. What would you want them to help you with? And instead of talking about any of these things, you know, it was reduced taxes.

Nick Lincoln:

Always comes back to it always comes back to taxes. Okay, thank you for that. In a similar kind of vein, I the Schroders advisor survey has come out. I'm not sure Schroeder's is a brand name in the US, Sam. It's a very old UK fund management, one of the oldest ones, and they published, they published an annual survey. I'm going to be a bit bullish here. I'm going to step off the fence for once. But apparently, 276 advisors took part in this. And what a bunch of window lickers. Apparently. Of these 207 and if any of them are listening to the trap right now, do yourself a favor. Have a good word with yourself. Of these 276 advisors, 80% think the British ISA is a good idea. Sam, again, not going to bore you with it. It's an inane, insane idea from the previous administration, which the new labor government. I think it's going government, I think it's going to put into place. 80% of the advisors think it's a good idea, wrong. And then they were asked, how are your clients feeling about investing? And apparently, 41% of clients are feeling bullish and 10% are feeling bearish. No one cares how clients are feeling about investing. We don't ask them the question. Who asked their class, how do you feel about investing? We're telling them to invest again. It comes back. There's order. I've got no idea what any of my clients think about investing at any stage. I'm not interested. And then finally, 47% of advised clients rank capital loss as their number one concern. Insane. There is no loss. There is no loss if you don't sell, there's only loss if you sell capital No.

Andy Hart:

Capital loss is a fair concern. But you're talking about, now, if they were invested in a global equity portfolio, is capital loss a high I'm talking about, yeah, a high probability, you're correct, but capital loss is a fair concern. So capital loss is a fair concern with your money, right? So

Nick Lincoln:

my point is, well made. No, it's

Andy Hart:

not well made.

Alan Smith:

There's a there's a few, there's a thread going through all this. If you go back to the the unfortunate investor in the US this Powerball money, he said, capital loss. And you know some of the, you know the this conversation we had last time about risk versus volatility. There are people who may have capital losses. And this is the whole point. This again, comes back to this, this art that we're talking about. You can't have capital loss in a globally diversified equity portfolio,

Andy Hart:

yeah, long term by disciplined, grown up investor. Well, you need to. You

Alan Smith:

can only have a capital loss when you decide to sell your assets at during a temporary decline, during a temporary device, only way you can have it. So what does Nick Murray say? It's a, it's a human achievement at the market itself isn't capable of. So you so that's the that's that's the thing you're playing, we're dealing with. And you read these surveys and the dump advisors are giving the answers. He does. It does create some that was

Nick Lincoln:

the point. That was the point I was making, and made very well. Next on the docket. Storyteller, well,

Alan Smith:

we've got a theme going through this, and again, we're using this and this, which sort of towards the end of our toggle tick bits, but we just pick up stuff that's been in the news recently. This was something I don't know very much about. These companies involved, but I know they're big they're big brands. There's a company called Tavistock, and they are what they are. They're kind of they're an advisory firm, big one, one of the biggest in the country, I think. And they've effectively outsourced their portfolio investment management that they recommend on behalf of their clients to another outfit who hadn't heard of before, but they're an investment manager called Titan, and it seems that they've had a bit of a you

Unknown:

underestimate the power

Alan Smith:

of the dark side, but it would appear that they've had a bit of a dust up. It's ended up in court. One One decided to sue the other, and then the other has counter sued them, and they've now gone public about the reasons they're countersuing. It was actually in city AM, which is a more is a kind of a national newspaper, consumer newspaper, the other day, and I put the link to the article, and I just browsing through it as you do so. It's looking at the the Titan fund performance. Bear in mind, there are, must be hundreds of 1000s of clients involved in this. And it lists all the funds, the acumen, portfolio four, portfolio five, portfolio six, at least they haven't named them. You know, the the moderate or the high risk or whatever, balance quarter ranking, fund rank, percentile ranking. And I'll just read them out. First Fund is a 100th, percentile ranking. The second was a 100th this. Third is 99th, 100 and. Internet, they are in the bottom 1%

Andy Hart:

for all these How could you even do that? It is, it

Alan Smith:

is practically the skill to do that, to be for every one of their funds. I mean, what the hell were they doing? That is just massive with high fees and trading. We're joking about it, but again, as I always say, it's not their money, it's not our money is families wealth, it's their long term financial security, all those good things. It is an absolute mess. This will be a big court case, costing millions, no doubt, paid for by shareholders and investors. It's, yeah, it's awful, and you didn't have to do that. It's the point. The answer is very simple to all these things. It's really simple. It's in front of your eyes. If you bought a simple, let's say, a Vanguard fund or similar, you'd be, you would not be in the 99th percentile or the 100th percentile for all your funds. It's really, do

Nick Lincoln:

you think? Do you think tighten the better DFMS than posh DFM

Unknown:

don't go there.

Andy Hart:

No neck and neck. Yeah, right. Next to you, next up, next up, very quickly. Don't

Nick Lincoln:

just comment on it particularly but there's an article by our friends of the show banker on wheels. Careful how you say that. Banker on wheels useful guide to indexes and comparisons. There are all these indexes that we have, the FTSE ones, the MSCI one Sam, which I'm sure you have in the States as well. And it just compares them all and breaks them down. And basically, if you have a portfolio that is global equities tilted perhaps to value and small cap dimensions, you want to be looking at the MSCI All world I am i index, which has been around since 1995 There you go. Wow, that was interesting. Okay. Final, typical tidbit, Sam, don't laugh. We're 47 minutes into the topic of into the show. The final part of topics is ultra with some quarter two returns. I

Andy Hart:

mean, we have so many US references today, and we've not shoehorned any of them in for Sam. And this is another US reference, a blog that I read called novelinvestor.com again, it's all data sort of stuff. He's come out with his 2024 quarter two returns. A couple of highlighted points on there. You can click the link in the show notes. Surprise, surprise, the top performing sector is information technology and communication services, and the third best is the S p5 100. But they're just saying there's only two sectors within the S p5 100 that have actually outperformed the S p5 100 is a bit of a an odd one to get your head around. The top countries. I'm going to read out the top, top three, just for a laugh. Car's not here. Denmark is the top performing 23.96 followed by the Netherlands, then Ireland, then the S, p5 100. What he did say was quite interested in the opening article is, AI is not like the internet boom that we had, because he's basically saying the AI wealth is concentrated in a handful of companies. The internet boom was 100 stroke 1000s of just completely made up shell, you know.com, names or whatever. But obviously people like to make comparisons when there's a sort of recurring type theme. And again, seven stocks control 30% of the S P's wealth. It doesn't matter, because you own them all when you own the index. So you haven't got to try and pick these winners with foresight, because you can't do it, whereas, in hindsight, you become the owner of those companies anyway. So yeah, it's, it's a decent link, novelinvestor.com and it's in the show notes. What's

Nick Lincoln:

the S P is

Alan Smith:

up, what? 15% or something? Yeah, the

Andy Hart:

S P is up, yeah, 15 points, but six, nine, but the first six months, Alan, yeah, for six months, but

Alan Smith:

the s 15.2 9s, p, 493, I the other 493, companies, excluding the Magnificent Seven, is up about 3% roughly, yeah, I know. Great. Doesn't matter. You gotta beat you. You're on

Andy Hart:

the more and you own the global equity portfolio. You own the beast anyway. You haven't got to pick these beasts in with foresight. You own them in hindsight, which is brilliant.

Nick Lincoln:

That's right, you don't want the needle, you want the haystack, right? Let's move on. We are 49 minutes. Good grief, save me. Let's move on to the meat and potatoes of the show. This is where we give one theme a damn good thrashing. Unless we've got an expert from the US on the trap show today, in the form of Samantha Russell, an expert in the area of marketing and business growth strategies, that is going to be the subject we're going to thrash to death. I've got no idea who's going to leave this off. I'm going to leave the microphone. Silent now for someone to step into the

Andy Hart:

void. Over to our esteemed guest. Well, let

Alan Smith:

me just just open it up. And inimitable trap style, we haven't really prepared Samantha very much for this, but she won't need to, because she's a subject matter expert, aren't you, Sam, but I think if I were just to sort of, you know, get the ball rolling, just say if you were engaging as a brand growth marketing expert, if you were engaging a new if any one of us came to you and said, we really do want to grow the business. We've got, we're, you know, we've got everything in place. We've got a team, we've got advisors. We're doing okay. Would like to sort of, you know, double or treble our business over the next number of years. We've got a budget. What are the immediate, sort of two or three things that most firms ought to really start, start doing. That's, that's just a starter for 10 Where would you get going?

Samantha Russell:

The first thing I people come and ask me that question all the time, what like tactics should we do? Should we start a YouTube channel? Should we have a podcast? Do we need to double down on creating a sub stack or a newsletter of some sort? I always make people stop there first though, and go back and say, before we talk about what marketing tactics we should engage in, I ask them the question, what about your business is marketable? Because most people don't have an answer to that question, they will say, you know, I'll say, what makes you different from the other person sitting right next to you? And we've talked a lot about this into, you know, today's show, just in general, the idea of, you know, you could put your money in a Vanguard fund and do pretty well, and so with the investment part arguably becoming so commoditized, so much is coming down to people choosing someone that they like, that they want to spend time with, that maybe makes them laugh, that they have cultural references with. You know, table stakes is becoming doing a good job with the portfolio, and it's coming down to so many other behavioral things that are making somebody choose. So when I asked that question, what about your business is marketable for a lot of people, you know, they've been told for years and years, oh, you need to have a specific niche or a specific type of client you work with. And that really is a reason why? Because Sam,

Nick Lincoln:

the word is niche. I'm sorry, niche. Okay,

Samantha Russell:

you're on team lunch, um, because, because it makes you, it makes your business, quote, unquote, more marketable when you have something specific, like, there's a gentleman in the US, and he's obsessed with fly Fisher, being a fly fisherman. And he would go to Wyoming all the time and fish. And he started talking about it on his social media when he would do this podcast he had, and he started attracting other flock fishermen. So that's like, where the attraction started. And then it was like, Oh, hey, I'm also an advisor. I helped do these things. I'm arguably good at what I do, but it was being the fly fisherman that was, you know, attracting people with you all, yeah,

Nick Lincoln:

I've heard that guy was on Michael Kitz podcast, a thing. Yes. He was, yeah, ages ago, yeah, yeah. So,

Samantha Russell:

I guess my point is, though, asking that question, it can be really hard and uncomfortable for a lot of businesses, because they might not really have anything. They've just sort of been getting by with doing a decent job for their clients, but now they want to go full force into this marketing campaign, and that's the question I would lead with.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, okay,

Samantha Russell:

so, but we can go from where we go from there.

Nick Lincoln:

We've just sorry, just, just, just for the dear TRAPPIST who's listening to this, maybe not watching. We've lost Mr. Smith. There's probably been some earthquake in Turkey. So we've lost Carl. He's on a floating pedal though, in the Atlantic, off the Portuguese coast. And we've lost Alan. All that was just been presented with this hotel bill, and given he's been there for two weeks, it's probably gone up by 3,000% knowing the Turkish inflation rate, and he's having some sort of major heart episode in the Mean business growth. So myself and Ultra, we are myself and Andy. We both have small, compact businesses. Samantha, I'm very much a one man band, and my my business growth is really just organic growth, which, which is probably making your skin crawl. Just even think about it. But I just literally, it's referrals only. I don't, I don't have any advertising spend or anything like that. I know I have a website, but it's, I don't want web trawlers coming to me. It's just, there's a sort of front, front of, front of house thing, so referrals can at least look at my site and see that I look vaguely competent. But my my business acquisition strategy is just, it's just purely through referrals. What's, what's, what's yours? Andy, well,

Andy Hart:

again, put that aside. Most advisors are entrepreneurial and want to grow their businesses. So marketing something that they're all having a sort of keen focus on. So I'm going to pass it back to Samantha to take us on the on the next step of the marketing journey. So yeah, what's your what's your next thoughts? Please?

Samantha Russell:

Yes. So once you've got that you know, what about your business is marketable, the next step is crafting messaging. So again, I have all these people who will come to me and say, I want to create, you know, this content, or do this or that, and we'll go look at how they're talking about their self and their business and their customers or their their clients, and it's all very we focused. We've been in business for 30 years. We have this track record. It's we, we, we. But if you look at a lot of psychology studies about what lights up the brain, like the rewards. Center of the brain, where we feel really good about an interaction. The more you talk about yourself, the better you feels. And with consumers, the more it's you know, we don't really care what someone can do. We care what they can do for us. So we want to change all the messaging from being we and I focused about our firm to you focused. So an exercise I'll do with people is we'll look at their website or their LinkedIn post. How many times are you saying we or I? And how can we reward that to be you and make it all about the person that you're trying to serve? And it actually takes, it's pretty difficult for people to get used to doing that. You know? The what I like to say is, if you're gonna go and you're gonna book a night to go out on like a dinner boat cruise or something, right? And you're looking online and all the options, and somebody's like, this is our boat, and we've been doing this for 20 years, and here's all of the specifications of the boat and the engine and the horsepower and the beautiful boat. Nobody cares, but another person who's like, this is what you're going to experience on this cruise, and why it's going to be fun, and how you're going to feel, and you know, it's all about the experience that you're going to have. That's the one you're going to book. And so a lot of advisors, marketing needs to be focused on the experience that the person will have. It's hard, because with compliance, especially in the US, outcomes can be really difficult. You can't really talk that much about this. Is what the outcome will be if you work with us. So we really focus on, can we use case studies? Can we use social proof? What have other clients experience? And I know in the UK, it's easier. You can use testimonials a lot easier. That's where your focus needs to be, way more than on your qualifications, your how long you've been in business, all of those things. Because truly, at the end of the day, most people don't care so much. Again, it's what can you do for me?

Andy Hart:

Okay, I'm gonna wind up Nick and call it niche. If the firm doesn't have a niche or niche, do you advocate that they get one? Or do you think people naturally fall into having one? What's your thoughts on the whole area

Samantha Russell:

it? So if you really, really want to launch, like a full fledged marketing campaign and go really crazy, and you don't have that big of a budget, then yes, that will be incredibly helpful to you. To get one. I have seen people have great success. They've got a little bit more budget to spend. And by the way, the average firm in the US is only spending about one to 3% of revenue on marketing. And you know, lots of studies suggest it really should be more if you're if you really want to grow intentionally and see big, big gains, it needs to be more like 10% so most people are not spending much to see the growth. But yes, having a niche is going to you, it's going to have that exponential growth factor. Initially it's going to be a little less, because you can't say yes to everyone. But then over time, as more and more people know you as the person who serves this group of people, you're going to get more referrals. And I always like to say, think of a magnet. In order for a magnet to work, there has to be a side that repels. So you have to repel some people in order to attract other people.

Andy Hart:

Okay, let's just say your idol firm came to you, and they were somewhat established. They were keen to grow, and they put a lot of value on marketing. And they said, Yep, you got 10% How do you distribute that? Where do you then go from there?

Samantha Russell:

So one thing that I would tell people to stop spending so much money on, actually, right now, is SEO. I'll flip the question a little bit with AI, because we were talking about that so much people are less and less going to be using in the especially in the coming years, you know, going to Google when clicking on ads and things, and the research is even showing that Google's really nervous about how much revenue they're going to lose with this, and also they act the CTO of Google actually went to a tech conference recently and reported that their own research showed that 40% of the youngest generation, the under 30 crowd, now goes to Tiktok or Instagram to look for things first, before Google. So they're trying to make Google more visual. Yeah, Google, you'll notice it Google,

Andy Hart:

strangle hold on search. I feel for the first time. Is, is is vulnerable? Is it perplexities coming along? Which is another search engine? Yeah, they've just made search really unenjoyable when, obviously, when they switch the sponsored posts from the right to the center, you know, they've just, they've just pushed it too far, I think. But that's a maybe another conversation. Yeah, okay. So, yeah. So, yeah.

Samantha Russell:

So don't worry about SEO as much. I You have to have a main content pillar. You know, one of the things is, if you save all of your best thoughts and education for your just for your clients, then your marketing strategy is a hope and a prayer that your clients are going to tell everybody else how great you are. And I know, you know, for a lot of advisors, they have grown through referrals, but it really puts the ball in the client's court, instead of in your control for how fast and quickly you grow. You. So if you want to grow faster and you want to be more in control of it, you need to be you have to have a content engine. So you all have this podcast. That's one way to do it. You know, I tell people to pick what they're they're going to be most comfortable at is it going to be having an article, a newsletter, a blog, a YouTube channel. Honestly, it doesn't matter as much as you think. It's more about getting it out there, I like to push towards video just because consistency, yeah, and consistency. I like to push towards video just because we're all reading less long articles than we were before. And when you see someone's face, there's something called the mere exposure effect that just the more times we are exposed to something, the more we report that we like and trust it. So just by virtue of seeing someone's face, more and more, they will be considered more trustworthy. So the more video content that you have, arguably, then the more trustworthy you may appear. So

Andy Hart:

my Tiktok channel is a great idea. Thank you very much for confirming. Fantastic. I know who I know you are more of a digital expert, but yeah, just for the audience, what's your thoughts between the sort of split between digital and in person type, old school networking, you know, seeing other professionals? What's, what's your sort of slant on that?

Samantha Russell:

I mean, I think more you can do in person the better. Just goes back to the idea that so many things now can be outsourced. You know, we have more artificial intelligence. We have more abilities to do, to get things done with computers and machines and so, like the people I've seen who are doing really things really effectively, are doubling down on experiences, whether it's, you know, taking clients. We talked about the fly fisherman guy, I think he does like a trip now, with his like, top clients, hosting a cool event. But there's a lot of firms that also serve people all over the country. They're not just location based. So you know, having those unique experiences, there's something called that my friend Jackie Wilkie advocates for called The Family phone call where she sets up a time to talk to the parents and invites their adult children to join them on the call to really engage that next generation. It makes it super personable. She has like, a whole way that she suggests she go through it, but make it a big deal to say we've been working together a long time. We really think it's important that you're clued in on what's going to happen. And that's a really personal one on one experience. They send something in the mail ahead of time to make it like a fun evening, I think, like a little cocktail making kit or something. But those kinds of things become more and more important when anybody can create a newsletter and have aI write it,

Andy Hart:

right? I think we sort of naturally ended up my next question, Nick is 100% zoom advisor, I'm sort of kicking around probably 80% of client meetings on Zoom. Yeah. What's your thoughts for again, the audience on being more focused on Zoom, less focus on Zoom. Would you work with an advisor exclusively on Zoom? If you do

Samantha Russell:

my financial advisors in Florida and I'm in Pennsylvania,

Andy Hart:

so we never met them. IRL, you've never met them in real life. No,

Samantha Russell:

I have met them in real life, but I would be comfortable if I had it. I think, I think, honestly, clients like being on Zoom I mean, who wants to take time out of their day to drive to someone's office, sit there, deal with all that like it's easier? Yeah, I'm, I think it's 100% fine to do zoom only. And you know, even sometimes people don't want to have a big, hour long meeting, even about things like they want to just be able to send you a text and say, Can you give me an answer to this?

Nick Lincoln:

Well, I've made this point before, sorry, Sam, that I think zoom has got rid of the need for chitchat. You do still do the chit chat, but I think when people drive, especially the country the country the size of yours, people may drive hours to get to the advisor's office. The advisor may drive hours when they get there, they feel obliged to fill up some of the time with just chit chat, because otherwise the meeting could be over in 3040, minutes if it's focused. And so we had this, this, this way of padding it out at either end. But now with Zoom, you don't have that. So you just create, oh, you know, you have the formalities and they have the niceties, but, yeah, crack on you. Crack on with the stuff.

Samantha Russell:

Even without, you know, my I'll ask my advisor a question, and he'll create a quick loom or veed video, and put the screen up with, you know, let's say we're talking about benefits or something. Here's what you got, here's what to know about for open enrollment. And send it to me, and I don't have to meet with them. I just watch it when I want. If I have a question, I have a question, I can. So I, I think, you know, the client appreciates it, especially people, at least in the phase of life we're all in where you're still working, you got a lot going on, like, you know, it's the time that you could be spent doing something else. It

Andy Hart:

definitely favors the more tech enabled advisors. Yeah, a lot of advisors, I say, Oh no, no. I'm still seeing all my clients. I think they prefer think they prefer to see me. I think nice, because you're really bad at Tech, my friend, you get on top of it. If you get on top of it and give them an option, I'll, trust me, they

Nick Lincoln:

don't want to see you. Nobody wants to be stuck in a room with me. I know this from experience. Just couple of points you raised there, Sam and just this is a maybe a misperception, but I think the perception in the UK is that, come. Appliance wise, we have it far harder here than the USA, okay, because you mentioned it with testimonials. So testimonials are not not a thing in the US.

Samantha Russell:

I mean, so they the rule came out that you can use that. But virtually, the adoption is so low, because nobody wants to be the first guinea pig, because they know that regulators are going to they left it so gray for open for interpretation, that it's going to come down to the lawsuits that fill in the blanks, and so people don't want to be to go first.

Andy Hart:

Also the next question, I thought, in the US, if, let's say, you wanted to become a client of an advisor, the onboarding process is the onboarding process a lot faster and slicker. If you want to switch advisors, could they literally switch the money within a week? Let's say you had a million dollars on some platform, or whatever that Yeah, most advisors used, yeah, to go to advisor. It depends

Samantha Russell:

what custodian they use and how tech enabled the advisor is. So there are some that can make it happen fast. There's others, the RE papering would take a lot longer. What do

Andy Hart:

you say? Repaying is still digital, just to push, yeah,

Samantha Russell:

filling out all the forms you know, transferring who owns the assets. Now, if you're going from one advisor who you know, uses fidelity, to another advisor uses fidelity, it's a little bit easier. And there are a lot of advisors in the US that use multiple custodians. For that reason, they have they use them all. But yeah, I think I don't know how difficult it is there. The compliance difficulties here really come down to there's advisors who are independent, registered investment advisors, and advisors that are hybrid or with broker dealers that oversee their compliance. And if you're with a broker dealer, it really comes down to the person in the chair saying, yes, you can do that, or no, you can't. They're interpreting the law, and there's many of them that are very, very strict and conservative. Fine.

Andy Hart:

Is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners in relation to marketing? Or are we going to tie a bow in this? So I've got a couple of points. If Sam, you

Nick Lincoln:

can talk as long as you can talk as long as you live. Got a couple of points just to come back to Sam on so just whatever you

Samantha Russell:

want to do. Sam, yep, go ahead.

Nick Lincoln:

Well, I just one. I mean, it's a pity that storyteller has dropped out. Alan's dropped out this, of this, of this episode of Travel. Hopefully he's somewhere out in the ether, because he, his nickname is storyteller, because he does like to talk a bit Sam, but he's a great he's a great he's a great believer in his firm Capital Asset Management, of the use of client stories. So what we do, and what you do, to a degree, is intangible. We can't, we can't sit down with somebody and say, Yeah, look, this is the, this is the, this is the vitamin D bottle that I will build for you at the cost of five cents a unit, and it's brilliant, and it's plastic, and it's got a lid and everything, and you can hear the things rattling aside. We can't show our potential customers, our potential clients, that it's all IP it's all ideas. It's all a bit ethereal. But if you can do stories and case studies of how you help people out who are similar to the prospects in front of you people, there's this, the whole concept of the Avatar, the ideal client avatar, as well. Just building out a profile of people of your ideal prospect, and helping prospects just say, Oh yeah, you know. So you helped Mr. And Mrs. Smith, and they were, they were business owners, and they were looking at some that's just like us, isn't it? Yeah, it's like us. And now you did that for them. Very, very, very important to have a good, a good cache of stories, genuine stories. Another thing which I really like, which I do go on about, as well as this, this magnet allegory, which you used the idea that and especially the younger TRAPPIST listen to this, who probably feel that every client that says no is like a personal slightest of rejection. It's definitely not. It's just business, right? You have to be repelling. You have to repel. If you try be all things to all people, you'll be nothing to anybody. You've got to have a strong conviction, a strong way of doing things your way. There's enough in the universe. I have an abundance mentality. And there's there's enough in there. You those people out there who need our help, they will find you. But you're going to repel. You're going to be that North Pole on the magnet, whichever one it is that that pushes away. And you want that younger advisors. You want clients, not everybody, because if you repel everybody, you've probably got a hygiene issue, and you're probably quite unpleasant, but you need to repel a significant number of prospects who are coming before you, because you don't, you do not want to be all things. I'd say 80 to 90% you'll be a mile wide and an inch deep, and you'll be a busy fool. You know, when I when I worked for my previous firm before I went out my own in 2008 very good firm, lovely guys, but they just couldn't say no. They just could not say no. They take on anybody for anything all the time, and they were working crazy hours, and they were literally buried behind stacks of paper on their desk. And I looked at them, and I thought, I, I want to become more repellent. My goal in life is to be a repellent, and I've worked on it for the last 16 years, and I've got to dance with T so that was that, that was a, yeah, I think

Andy Hart:

the embedding of it

Samantha Russell:

now you want somebody to read what you write, or see your podcast or go to your website and say, Yes, this person helps people just like me, and they self qualify themselves, rather than you kind of proving why you're great just by what they're reading and seeing about. You. They know you're you're a good bit well, I've got

Nick Lincoln:

one final question for you, and then we, then we can tie on it, because I think Alan is probably in the boss for us, bobbing about on his own. Now, um, AI, you mentioned AI in the writing of newsletters. I against me. It's what about me, right? It's not about me, but it sounds like I do think your voice is your own voice is very authentic, whether it's whether it's in your meetings, that you project who you are, you don't put on a facade. And when you write and when you communicate, you want the clients to almost hear as Nick or Andy speaking to you. I don't think AI can do that. So you get these AI newsletters now, well, what's your view on it? Obviously, AI is very quick at getting copy out there, but it's not, it's not from that person's it's not in that person's voice. What do you think about that as, as someone who's, uh, yeah,

Samantha Russell:

I think it's, it's perfectly fine to ask AI to summarize, like you, a lot of the clients we work with, um, they'll have a newsletter that they do, and every single, you know, month they put out a newsletter and it's or like week, it's three stories that they've read about and kind of their take on why their client should pay attention to it. It's fine to go to AI and say, summarize this article, give me the most you know, the biggest points, or whatever, but then you have to go in and make it your own. Have a voice and telling the story. I think that's the key. Like a lot of the one advisor I work with, one of his most popular parts of his newsletter every week is he includes a YouTube video from back when he was in or a song from when he was in high school or college, like on this day when I was partying in the basement at my fraternity house listening to this song. And his clients love like the music throwbacks another person. He's a big DIY er, and he has a little section of his newsletter where he puts a picture of his latest project, and he's always saying how his wife's so mad at him that he's destroying their house, but like, something personal that will, you know, just, and that's the part that people hit reply and comment on. It's not the whatever financial concept, it's the personal part.

Nick Lincoln:

Yeah, yeah, because it brings it, bring, brings you to life. I think, I think we should tie a bell on that, if that's okay, Sam, because we're

Andy Hart:

just on the AI thing. Nick, it's just an enhancements in technology. You know, we use voice to text to help us. If we put an article together, we use Grammarly, we use spell checker. So me just putting an article that I've written that's quite rough and raw and putting it into an AI engine and saying, Make this, you know, sound a lot better, the outcome is not that different. So it's just an enhancements in technology. There's no point having an extreme example of AI writing an article about some deep tax change that I'd never be interested in. That's that's me using the AI incorrectly. So if you use the software and AI correctly, you can get a lot of value from it. So your content is written by computer. Is that what you're saying on that is written by a computer?

Nick Lincoln:

I can't I'm

Andy Hart:

afraid not. Now, how

Nick Lincoln:

unlock the airlock? I can't do that. Dave Okey, dokey, so, Sam, excellent. You're coming over. We haven't not finished the show, but I'm going to mention it now, because you're going to come over to the UK for this CISI conference. You're speaking at a timeline conference as well. So if you want to meet Sam in person, get along to those two conferences. I'm sure at one of those conferences there'll be a heavy jacket, there'll be a chat Phil Bray, who runs a good marketing agent in this company called the yardstick, and he's very much about client testimonials. So if you meet, feel great, if you to have a chat about then just compare and contrast the differences. Okay, 73 minutes. Shoot me. I shouldn't say that. Don't shoot me. Don't shoot me. We are going to move on to the next part of the show, which is the TRAPPIST questions. Because I can see in my nest camera that post is at the front door. There she is ringing the front door. She's hauling up the drive the bulging sack of TRAPPIST questions. We get Trappists to send in their questions via the pinned tweet. The pinned x, there is a link to submit your questions. Also in the so called show notes, there's a link. And we go through these questions gradually. We're still working our way through them. These ones, I think, from the start of the year, in terms of when they were submitted to us. So we're going to go first. Let me just see who this letter is from. It's an old fashioned letter with a standpoint and everything opening up with my letter opener. There we go. And this one is from Jake. And Jake's put his social handle in there. It's a LinkedIn address, so we'll put that in the so called show notes. Hi guys. Love the podcast and learning so much working my way through previous episodes when answering another TRAPPIST question in Episode 19, and he said, If you spent X years as a restricted, independent firm, you are ready to go on your own. But how long is x? This is clearly subjective and depends on the advisor. But what do you think is a sensible length of time gaining client, facing experience in an employed role is before making the leap? You need to put some commas in here. You know the grammar spray porn is, I can't, I can't pass it anyway. How long before you make the leap? I think is the question you'll know when it's time to go. Is my art? There's no There's never going to be a parting of the clouds and an angel is going to wing down and say, Now is the time to go out on your own. And. There's never going to be the perfect moment you've when you think it's the time to go, go and don't wait for all your ducks to be lined up, because they'll never be lined There'll always be something giving you cause for concern. But the moment you think you know what I can do this on my own, that is the moment to go out and do it. And that could be three years working another firm. It could be 13 years working at the firm. Just go and do not wait for a sign from heaven that all is aligned and the stars are aligned for you, because that moment will never come. You just got to go Ultra

Andy Hart:

like all complex things in life, it depends. It depends on how old you are, it depends on your personal financial situation, it depends on how smart you are in building a business, and depends on how sort of technical you are. As an advisor, I'd say the minimum apprenticeship stage you should do working for another firm is probably five years, if I was pushed to give a number, but ideally closer maybe to eight. You know, it does depend. Some people have worked two or three years in a firm and left and set up their own. Other people spent 23 years at a firm and then left and set up on their own. So it all does depend on your personal situation. Just interpreting reading between the lines. Jake, sound quite young. So again, ideally set up on your own when you're young, when you don't have, maybe children, high financial, you know, personal burn rate. Again, it depends. Speak to a lot of people. Everyone's got a different answer, but yeah, if I was really pushed to answer your question, I'd say, five years, Sam, I'm

Samantha Russell:

always going to look at things from a marketing lens, and it can be difficult to get, you know, new clients to trust you. If you're a couple years in the business, you don't have a super long track record, and you don't have a lot of support behind you, or people double and triple checking. So you know, if you can stay independent, but maybe be part of an organization where you can show that there's other people involved and doing back office things, things like that, that also can be really helpful. But I agree. I think, you know, from the consumer perspective, they're going to want to see that you've got a track record of being in the industry for a while before they're going to hand over their life savings to you.

Unknown:

Yep, yep. Okay,

Nick Lincoln:

it just sorry in a cluster fudge of monumental cock ups that besieged this show, we've Carl. We've lost Carl somewhere around in the Atlantic. Alan's floating about the boss for us. Samantha, I think your AirPod microphones dropped out, and now you're speaking through your computer microphone. So if you could re

Samantha Russell:

engage, I think they we've been on so long that I didn't they both are like dying, so I'm changing.

Nick Lincoln:

You might need to the microphone. If you can do it, don't do a discovery. Okay, thank you. Wow. It's all going to if Alan was here, he would, what would he say about this? He would, he would, he would say it's an absolute shambles. This is what he would say, absolute

Alan Smith:

shambles, absolute shambles, good man.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, without any further ado, there we go, Jake. We've answered your question. Thank you for that question. If you think the time is right, just go ahead and do it would be I think the overarching advice, I think it's time we moved on without any further ado to what many people call culture corner. Now, Smith is not here to do his so we'll skip straight on. Mine is Nvidia. Sam, have you heard of Nvidia? It's one of your small, little tech startups doing quite well. Yeah. Obviously the story of the S, p5, 100 for the last couple of years, and via the billions podcast, which is a podcast series that focuses on ETFs, which are for various reasons, especially tax, are much, much bigger in the US than they are in the UK. The billions series on ETFs focuses on leveraged ETFs. And not only can you put your money into Nvidia, which even just doing that on his own would give me the willies, you can go into these things that increase the leverage, increase your exposure by two times, two fold, or even, God forbid, 2x So an interesting look at that. And there are also ones where you can short Nvidia the other way to me, this is absolutely toxic, high octane, highly inflammable, speculative devices. I'm sure some fund managers have a need for them at the edges, but wow,

Andy Hart:

the NVIDIA 3x one Nick is one of the top buys on hl. So this is also a UK thing as well, rocking up. I think it's up 1,000% this year, the 3x nvidian 2024,

Samantha Russell:

you could have done with that. When you're you're betting on, if you're betting on sports like what? Everybody's into the gambling apps now, what is, I can't even think of their names as well, but you can just used to be. You just bet on the game who's going to win, maybe a little spread. Now it's like you can bet on anything. I feel like that's sort of what has happened sometimes with investing, like they're just trying to keep it interesting. Come up with new things just to have something to talk about.

Nick Lincoln:

Sam, how much of your personal wealth do you have in the Nvidia, two times leveraged ETF and. Zero. That's the correct answer. Okay, moving straight on and Samantha, we have three of your you got three. You are taking advantage of your time as being a member of the trackpad. You've got three culture corners. Tell us about them.

Samantha Russell:

Okay, so we don't, I don't have to go through all of them. But the Smart List podcast, I don't know if you've ever listened to that with can't think of the three. American actors, and it's really good, but this one with Jeremy Renner, if you're not familiar with him, he's huge actor in the been in the board series, right? All the things, and he just, he had this near death experience, and he talked about it on this podcast, and it has stuck with me for a while. Um, it's not related anything financial or investing, but it was so good. So it was just actually, you know, they listened to something or read something for a while, and, you like, can't get it out of your head. I have been telling everybody to go listen to this forever. Have either of you heard

Andy Hart:

it? No, no, just, I just kept on it now, yeah.

Samantha Russell:

So he was run over by a snow plow and basically died on the table for a while, and he had this moment of kind of clarity about what comes next. And I'm making it sound hokey, but when you listen to him talk about it, it's it was really, really good and interesting. So I loved that. And then the this book alchemy. I don't know if you've ever read sorry about just

Nick Lincoln:

to interrupt you very quickly, Alan said the internet is down, but he's back in internet is down, but he's back in a minute. When he comes back into the meeting, we'll just pretend we're winding up the

Andy Hart:

show. Okay, so we are winded up the show. We're pretty much done. Well, we've

Nick Lincoln:

still got a few culture corners to go. So sorry, the the book. Oh

Samantha Russell:

yeah, Rory, this is an older book. It's been around forever, but I just reread it, Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland. And one of the things that's really stuck with me there is the idea that we, there's so many problems in the world that necessarily, you can't, you know, he's talking about, for instance, with taxis. And like, when Uber came around, it wasn't solving the problem of, oh, you know, waiting for a taxi is annoying because we all want to get where we're going, and waiting that part is always going to be there. But because they created this map that allowed you to see exactly where the taxi is, psychologically, it makes it less frustrating to wait. Yeah, and you know, he makes the parallel that in so many industries, you can't take away the pain of something, but you can make it less miserable by give, either giving people more information or making the experience more pleasurable. And I feel like it's it's was so it's a great book, and there's so much to be applied to all businesses in that one. Yeah,

Andy Hart:

no, I'm a Rory Southern and absolute super fan. I must have listened to that guy for 500 hours. He spoke. He spoken twice at my conference. He's absolutely amazing. Just to throw in a culture corner, he had his conference week and a week and a half. So I got called nudge stock, and it's all available online. Check it out. Nudge stock. You can just register online and watch all the talks. He did a fantastic opening. Yeah. So Rory Sutherland is, is an absolute legend. He is. And then I was

Samantha Russell:

just gonna say the last one is for so many people out there, you know, maybe who are trying to think about marketing better, or looking for examples of how to do it. There's this great website called marketing examples.com and this guy, he just scours the internet, and he will find email campaigns, ad campaigns, copy anything you can think of, and he just tells you why it works. And it's super easy to read and scan, and so inspirational. And I use it all the time, so I just linked it there. Okay,

Nick Lincoln:

great stuff. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, Mr. Hart,

Andy Hart:

over to me. Yeah. One is a podcast recommendation, modern wisdom, Chris Williamson's podcast number 805, gowinda Bogle, who I've been speaking about a while. He's a great thinker, definitely worth checking it out. My final one is a bit of a light hearted recommendation. It's a video editing app called cap cut that has been out for a while, but it's it's linked to Tiktok, but you can use it independently. The power of it is insane. Even just a family barbecue, just chuck a load of videos and pitches in it, and the stuff it produces is insane. Saves so much time, and it saves so much time. Yeah, capcut is powerful. That's it. That's us over and out. We've done it

Nick Lincoln:

with if smithy does come back, it's it's too late. Anyway, we are now 85 minutes in, which is just about at our sweet spot for we all just, I

Samantha Russell:

think he doesn't even need to be part of the podcast. Anyway, he doesn't

Nick Lincoln:

Sam you and I will discuss contracts off air. Okay, you're in smithy is out, Carl. Carl is always a I'll have

Samantha Russell:

all my stories ready for next time you can call excellent

Unknown:

story. You

Andy Hart:

will certainly arrive. You will certainly arrive in Liverpool with a lot of people knowing you, because a lot of people going back to that conference listen to this podcast. So, um, yeah, you certainly hit the ground running, that's for sure. Yeah. Oh no, like 95% of the audience will know you. Probably a bad everybody

Samantha Russell:

can't. Please come forward.

Andy Hart:

Have a little quiet time. You're going to be like bombarded by. People,

Nick Lincoln:

sissies in Manchester.

Unknown:

Oh, sorry. I think last

Nick Lincoln:

year, maybe the year before,

Unknown:

let that go. Oh, fine. Okay,

Samantha Russell:

well, I'll be in Manchester. Okay, let

Nick Lincoln:

me finish this up. So great stuff. See Samantha at the sissy conference, at the timeline conference, Trappist. That's a wrap for this episode. Thank you for your precious time. We do appreciate it. Please, please, please, do leave a review on iTunes. Six out of five stars is a mandatory request. And like and subscribe to us on YouTube, click that awful Bell and get notified whenever we post a new episode. They come out every other Thursday, and so doing, you'll be notified when those shows come out. But that's pretty much it is that from the two continual trackpad members, myself and ultra guest, Samantha Russell, we're missing Alan Smith, but not much. We're missing Carl widget, even less. Take care out there, folks, and we will see you in two weeks time. Adios, goodbye. Get out of my computer. Bye, bye, bye, bye.

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