56 - Full Fit Financial Planning

In this latest pile of TRAP, the Trap Pack discuss

• Topical Titbits including Irish pension funding changes, FT article on how risk has been so misunderstood, art scams, adviser fee levels, FCA reviews of ongoing services and consolidators
• Meat and Potatoes: Full Fit Financial Planning
• Culture Corner

Show links: http://tiny.cc/traplinks

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TRAP LIVE25 - 14TH MAY. Click here to purchase tickets.
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Transcript

Unknown: 0:11

Music, welcome to the real advisor podcast, T, R, A, P, T, please follow us and join in the conversation on Twitter at adviser podcast where you can suggest ideas and themes you'd like the trap team to discuss. Also remember to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a six out of five star review on iTunes. Doing all this really, really helps us, which means we can do more to help you. Now, let's head over to the studio for the latest pile of trap.

Nick Lincoln: 0:46

Yes, indeed, dear TRAPPIST, welcome back to what many people are calling episode 56 of the real advisor podcast, t up, AP trap. My name is lick Lincoln, and joining me as ever in the digital studio of doom are the three other Horsemen of the Apocalypse and the ultra heart. Alan the storyteller, Smith and Carl delachi, the voice widow. Now gentlemen, we have a show packed full of app, absolutely nothing. So let's start unpacking it straight away with some more high energy review reads, read out by my very good friend the right honorable Mr. Andrew Hart,

Andy Hart: 1:23

thank you. Lick. The first one is from stagman Six, six out of five. Five stars. Absolutely love this podcast. Please keep them coming. I've been an advisor for 11 years, and the content shared and his podcast has been invaluable. Real life stories and experience together with banter and laughs. The next review was sort of leapfrog this one, because it was written publicly on LinkedIn. So if you want your review to be read out ahead of the queue, maybe this is the thing to do. It's from Tom Brooks. It's quite long. Here we go. Well, it's taking me four to five months to get there, but I can finally say that I've now listed every 55 episodes of trap, and I'm still in disbelief just how few advisors have even heard of it. It had been on my list to listen to for a while, but I was overwhelmed by how many episodes there were, so I suffered from inertia. But meeting with Andrew Walker, I'm assuming he's from DFA, gave me a kick up the backside to get started. He said, Pick any episode and listen. You won't regret it. And he was right. So I started Episode One and listen to these gents what feels like regularly, more regularly than my own family for the last few months. If you're an aspiring financial planner, put the first episode on and be ready to take lots of notes. It's a wealth of information. And the trap team are doing a huge community service by sharing their experience of wisdom proper for financial planning is definitely on the rise within our profession and and we would have gotten there eventually, but this podcast is the catalyst that will accelerate that change by at least a decade, in my opinion. Thanks, gents. Wow. Back to you. Nicholas, so yeah,

Nick Lincoln: 2:53

how long is that? Yeah, that's that's that there are many of us, Tom, who think we should be doing community service, but instead, we're doing a service in the community, so we'll take it anywhere we can get it. Thank you for that, and thank you, dear trappers for the reviews. We absolutely love them. They are so kind. They really give us a fill up. And it's just one more reason for us to keep on knocking this stuff out, as they say at my local church. Okay, let's move on and put a time stamp with some topical tidbits. Yes, well, we're recording this just, what, nine days before the budget. So it's coming out seven days before the budget. So that's kind of overhanging everything in the UK car has been through his what would you call it, by the vote budget? Is that kind car you're in? Yeah. So you're the other side of it. So that's luck you have everything in the UK presently. But let's kick off with a storyteller. And yes, we've got a we got some TRAPPIST out in the Far East, I believe.

Alan Smith: 3:46

Yes, absolutely right. I had the pleasure of having a cup of tea with a lady by the name of Jackie McQuillan a few days ago. Jackie is a financial planner based in Singapore. She's Scottish by Origin, as all the best people are, but she relocated out to the Far East. Relocated out to the Far East a few years ago, and she's she's in and she's running, or part of a real financial planning company based in Singapore. So I was fascinated by, I was introduced by so we just met up and just fast, sort of swapped war stories, I guess, and listen to what life was like out in the Far East, in that part of the world. And by all accounts, it's the, you know, I said, a bit like the Wild West. Yeah, it's the wild east. In fact, the advice advisors out there giving advice, and the products that are out there giving advice, predominantly to the expat community. And obviously there's loads of expats living in places like Singapore and all over the Far East. It sounds horrendous. I mean, I said it sounds like the UK 10 years ago, and then the more she spoke, I thought, No, this is like the UK 30 years ago or something, just the the layering upon layering of fees and charges no fee disclosure. Are all these kind of wrappers, wrapper within a wrapper, huge, upfront, 789, 10% of initial investments paid up front, ongoing fees and costs, just, you know, eye watering and Jackie and a very small group, I think there's not much more than a dozen of them out there, this kind of internal group, the old, you know, working for similar firms, real proper financial planning, doing real cash flow, you know, trying to work out sensible investment propositions, sensible pricing structures, really making an impact and adding value to the clients, as opposed to being these kind of industrial asset gathering machines, which is just, you know, ripping people off, left, right and center, because there's a lack of option, an alternative. And one thing I do want to say on a lighter note is within their group, and they all listen to trap. And actually we you post this Nick about 1am don't you when it comes out, which turns out is 8am 8am in Singapore. She says, perfect. She says, as she's traveling into her office for work. It sort of lands in a, you know, inbox, or in her sort of ears or podcast player and on a way to work. As you said, it does make me laugh, you know, I hope in all the right places. So it's, it's, we're making a little bit of an impact and growing the community of real financial planners as far away as Singapore. And she says there is, and I want to give a shout out to this guy who I don't know, but there's a member of their group of Singapore TRAPPIST by the name of Andy. And apparently he thinks he knows everything. And every now and again, he goes off in one and they all burst into chorus, you know what's coming. And the ultra corrupt

Unknown: 6:43

and the ultra crop of Darren Andy, he knows about everything, and he can't be told anything. His name is Andrew Hart, Andrew.

Alan Smith: 7:00

So thank you to all the Trappists out there in Singapore. Keep on fighting the good fight, and we'll keep on doing our best to give you ideas and insights from the UK Ultra

Andy Hart: 7:14

just one point on the Singapore market. It was Singapore is world class in lots of stuff, education, transport, crime, you know, loads of other important factors. Yeah, their financial advice profession is just all you hear is absolute horror stories about it. I mean, I thought they'd rewrite it with a blank sheet of paper and come up with something that could be world class, even when it comes

Alan Smith: 7:45

to right? Because everything else about the country is is pretty positive, as you say. It's like

Andy Hart: 7:49

they've just adopted the worst practices of everywhere and sort of combined it together. Again. I don't know well enough. It's all sort of sort of new territory for me, but I do speak to quite a few Singapore advisors that are using the voyant global

Alan Smith: 8:01

sort of subscribe to your home premium as well. It's going out there. They use your materials out there. And, yeah, I said the same thing to Jackie, and she just said, it's just tied up by the banks and the bank. And I think there are, and I don't want to get into the weeds here and politics and stuff. There's about four super wealthy families that basically run Singapore Chinese families, and they all know the banks, and there's just no way that they are going to be changed by government right this moment, this must be history and legacy. And actually, I reflected on that, and I thought, despite all our moans and groans about our regulator, the UK, now, I would say is about the best regulated retail financial services market in the world. I can't think another one where it's you know, life is centric. What's client if you think back, you know, the influence that banks have got in the UK is pretty significant. That the regulator and the various iterations of regulators have obviously fought off a huge lobbying power from are these, these institutions that I've got a lot to lose from them cleaning up their acts. So I suppose it is credit to the FCA and their predecessors. We have got a better client centric market nowadays, and listening to these stories. And it's not just Singapore. I mean stories coming out in the Middle East and Dubai and Abu Dhabi, pretty horrific, really, but

Andy Hart: 9:21

anywhere transient population, that's the that's the challenge in and out. High Commissions. Yeah, we we know, but yeah, there's still a lot more to do.

Unknown: 9:30

Yep,

Nick Lincoln: 9:30

this is true. This is true. Good points well made. And we are lucky that we have two of our Trappists. Are two of the decent guys in the overseas, expat market. That's Richard Holmes and, of course, Chris Emmett, close friends of the show. But they seem to be few and far between. Okay, we've managed to make the first typical tip. It lasts about 10 minutes. Watch over to you. Muted watch,

Carl Widger: 9:52

oh, God, oh, god, oh god, yeah, I just sorry. I fell asleep there. And.

Alan Smith: 10:00

So All right now we're gonna talk about pensions. Now. Just wake us up. Yeah.

Carl Widger: 10:06

So yeah, I mentioned before that. The week before the budget they took, they announced that the standard fund threshold was going to be increased. Then the budget came along and there was nothing about prsas, which are these lovely pension contracts here, which was which were designed to simplify pensions so that you could put whatever you wanted into them on a yearly basis, and then the Finance bill comes out a week after the budget, and they have decided to change that particular they're calling it a loophole. I don't think it was a loophole, but anyway, they said, No longer can you pay in whatever you want. So big changes along the way, but they're not closing that door until the end of December. So as you can imagine, happy fill your boots. It's fill your boots time. Here, I would just urge caution. You know, advisors, advising clients, you know, to employ spouses and kids and all that kind of stuff, that's just a recipe for disaster. It has to be bona fide, you know, just play by the rules, and that way everybody who should be allowed do it can do it, and will will be left alone. Sorry. Nick, yeah,

Nick Lincoln: 11:13

no, that's fine. What is the limit going to be?

Carl Widger: 11:17

So we're going so we're going back to the old rules. So we used to have maximum funding calculations, so the max now that you can put in is based on your salary, your service and your age and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. And, you know? And that's the point, right? So there are some simpler rules applying to prsas going forward. But the point is, look, I think the simplification was going well. I think allowing people to put in 2 million or 2.8 million, as it's going to be into a PR saying, one fell swoop, was always madness. There should, you know, maybe limited, and maybe you can just do it in the last few years, or something like that. But I think we have regressed. And I we just had a chat offline before we came on today, and I think Andy said, you know, I know you guys are going to be talking about the budget, and there's a lot of people doing stuff in advance of your budget. What we need is a, is a is a long term pension strategy, so they're not changing the rules all the time, yeah, rushing to get this done, and doing it, and then doing stuff that they can't reverse out of, or they might have, you know, done it wrong or whatever. So that's what you'd hope for. That's what you wish for. Maybe it is coming, but it certainly seems like we've taken a massive step back and sure, look, it's just open season now, from now till Christmas.

Nick Lincoln: 12:32

It's a recurring theme in this country. It's a recurring theme in this country that you have a like a pensions commission that's not politically elected that stands outside of the political world, so and that they this, then this commission, whatever you want to call this Quang, I would look after pension legislation, because the minute, we're just driven by politicians with four year time timetable, that's and of course, pensions are by the very definition, this is long, this is lifetime, this is decades and decades. But they get dicked around with every few years by people who've got understandably short term horizons. They just want to state. They want power. That's that's the that's what drives most of them. So they're limited to four years. They and your country, call our country. They come in different parties. Dick around with it. There's no long term vision. There's continual uncertainty. Now, in a way, that's good for us as advisors, because there's always a need for our advice. But I don't want to be earning my money in that driven by that kind of, that kind of environment. No, you

Carl Widger: 13:24

know, the other thing, couldn't agree with you more Nick, and the other thing, it feels a lit. It feels so I'm almost like, we're not, we're not in sales. We're in advice, but obviously we have to sell them. We're not going to be afraid of saying but what you don't want to do is have the ick going around to people going, you must do this now, and there's a deadline coming in, because that feels salesy and it feels horrible and feels lucky, right? Yeah, it does. And yet we don't do it, and we don't tell our clients between now and Christmas, well, then you know they're going to come and go. Hold on a second. Why didn't you tell me about this? So I it's just not the way business should be done. I would have preferred, honestly, if they were going to make the change, I would prefer if they didn't make any changes. But if they did, when they were making the changes, why didn't they just say it's hot with a factor from tonight? There you go.

Andy Hart: 14:13

Come back to that.

Nick Lincoln: 14:14

That's actually a good point. You've raised that. Okay, so in the past week or so, the chocolate Institute of Christ, Securities and Investments, or sissy or Kissy, however you want to pronounce it, cc had its annual shindig in this time in the northwest, that Lancashire cricket ground in, I think it's not quite in Salford, Manchester and Salford cities that abridge each other. And three of us through the trackpad went storyteller Ultra and myself. Guys. Do you want to Who put that point yet? Ultra Do you want to lead off with your views, your your thoughts?

Andy Hart: 14:46

Well, I think Alan put it in because Alan spokes, who wants us to give him some glowing feedback perfectly, but we'll get back onto that. Yeah. Lancashire Cricket Club, two days old, traffic, great, networking and. And did speak. He did a whole talk on AI. And I thought was actually superb. Who was joined by what guys this needs to be. It was great. It was superb. Points to mention, yeah, the venue was okay. People were quite confused where to go. They had three different streams. The only thing I would say is, again, they didn't really treat speakers that well. I mean, there was sort of offshoot rooms that had bad projectors, seats, not being able to see the screens. The AV crews are not really on it. There wasn't water for the speakers. I don't know they just maybe next year, need to think that the speakers make everything we want them to have everything to hand. Be as comfortable as they can be. Thank God. Alan, I think, just about got his whole slide deck to the AV crew with about five minutes to spare, because they couldn't work on how to access a we transfer link anyway. Apart from that, it was superb. The network was brilliant. We had a late night. There was awards. Amelia, the Yeah, fifth Beatle won an award. I think it was the Paul essridge award, future leader. Yes, a lot of fun and a couple of other things. So for me, it's always the networking, but it's always good when the contents brilliant as well. But yeah, so what did you think, Nick, you were there for about 14 minutes, I think, in the end. So how did you find it?

Nick Lincoln: 16:23

Yeah, yeah, right. I think, I think it was well organized. And I want to shout out to Sally plant of the CIS I who kind of is, I think it's the one that's running the things, and she helped me out the day as well. So the thanks for that. I thought the content was very patchy. I better be honest. I think all of it is still not that great. I thought the keynote speakers by the two ladies were on the first day, were very good. Samantha Russell was the the later one. Obviously she's been a the six people or six Beatles. Well, she was excellent, as was as was the lady who spoke in the middle of the day. But apart from that, it was it was it was okay. It was okay. Nothing more than that. And you say the first two things I went into I couldn't, I couldn't read the slides, and I couldn't really hear what they were saying. I just thought, Okay, I'm not bothering. If you haven't bothered to to pay respect to the speaker and your audience, I'm not going to strain at the back trying to read slides that I can't, you know. So that is disappointing. There we go. Smith, what do you think?

Andy Hart: 17:20

Yeah, and speaker guys, yeah,

Alan Smith: 17:23

I'd echo what you guys have said thus far. No, we don't want to criticize it as well as Andy knows more than any of us. It's really difficult putting on an event, an event over two days at that I don't think the venue was particularly good, Old Trafford cricket ground, the conference center there, the the rooms were pretty well spaced out. The what the room that I spoke in called the members room, was kind of miles away from everything else, and there was just a bit of logistical challenges in that. I was in a I was sitting in watching a talk with Oliver Burke, which was, you know, really good, but he was plagued by tech issues. He lost about a third of his talk. I think, obviously we didn't get to see is, I don't know what it was, and then I apologize to him, and I said, I have to, because it was just before Nick Murray was coming on and looking at the agenda again. It was like, you know, Oliver finishes. I can't remember exactly, let's say

1: 18:16

40pm Nick Murray starts, 1:40pm so I thought, well, the time I get across there, I'm going to miss the legend that is Mr. Nick Murray. So I sort of bowed out and and are you with me when you were you? No, you weren't. So it was, yeah, and he got it was Justin King. Shout out to Justin King, big Trappist. He's, you know, legendary, loves spending time with with Justin. But then we got across, and I don't understand, because Nick Murray was billed for, I think, an hour, and I doubt if he was on as far as half an hour, 25 minutes, yeah, and it looked like it was pre 25 minutes. We are, we're nitpicking here. Somewhat. It was good. As always, these events, they are about, you know, around the proverbial water cooler,

Andy Hart: 18:58

or more like, more like the bar. Yeah, good conversation.

Alan Smith: 19:02

Shout out also to Jackie, Amelia, his mom, she was there. She's a load of fun. And, you know, there's a good community of people that just sort of, you know, don't take each other too seriously. Love to swap ideas, share, you know, whatever we're working on, what we're thinking about. So it was wonderful from that viewpoint. Yeah, I gave a talk. It was a bit nerve wracking, because minutes before it was due to start, they hadn't got my slides. But we, you know, we managed to solve it in the nick of time, but it doesn't set you up brilliantly to speaking in front of however many of your peers minutes before you think, I haven't even got a presentation to share with you. So those are the hopefully, as you say, they'll learn from this, and it'll be a slightly better event for next year, but

Andy Hart: 19:46

staggering someone of your class being in the smaller room around the back, I thought you'd be on the main stage, Alan, or is that that's,

Alan Smith: 19:53

that's what I thought as well. But down to the organizers, I think they read,

Nick Lincoln: 19:56

I think they read the room. Well, I think let's put, let's put specifically in the furthest. Room. Hard to get

Andy Hart: 20:01

to room was people, people spilling out the back. I sent him some wonderful pictures after that. He was very thankful for that. You posted him over LinkedIn. Obviously, we

Nick Lincoln: 20:12

got to move on. But just to say thank you to all the Trappists that came up to the three of us and just told us their stories about listening to the show how much they enjoy it. We

Carl Widger: 20:19

I'd like to say thanks for all the thanks for all the updates along the two days, especially the very late at night. Ones that were they were brilliant guys. Thanks, pretty soon, right?

Nick Lincoln: 20:28

Glad you enjoyed them. Watch. Glad you enjoyed them. Okay,

Alan Smith: 20:31

they were right

Nick Lincoln: 20:32

now this now, there's a word here, Alan. I want you just to internalize this and just chew on it and enjoy it. Brief,

Alan Smith: 20:40

yeah, I posted it a brief This is not a story. It is a story, but it's hopefully this is a two minute story. I just wanted to share this just as quickly. No, is this? Listen, this is a series. This is serious. This is serious. This is hot off the press. I've just come off a cold, literally an hour ago, with a prospective client. Now. This is a client that is literally in the proceeds of selling his business, and it's a significant business, and he will exit for a working nine figure, some significant nine figure sum, so north of 100 million pounds. And we've been chatting to him for quite a while, and he just said, Look, are you free for a quick call? He said, I got on the call with him. Now he said that we're going ahead all systems go, but just so you know, before I exit, all this news, this is a pre budget story. All this news is coming down. I'm not taking a risk. I was okay about paying 20% Well, begrudgingly, was going to pay 20% in capital gains tax that. But this potential rise to 39 or whatever it is, just got me thinking. I've spoken and he's got a, you know, one of the top firms of accountants that he works with, spoken with them. I've now made a decision. I've decided me and the family, we're relocating. We're going to, I won't mention the place, but they're going overseas, pre sale of the business. And I just, and so even at 20% you know, there's 10s of millions of pounds that HMRC are now definitely going to lose out on as a result of this one person's decision. And this is and he's just, and he was saying to me, said, everybody said, I mean, various founder entrepreneur networks and groups, we're all buzzing. And WhatsApp groups, we're buzzing. And almost everyone, without exception, is either making plans or or at least talking about it and investigating, depending on where they are on their business. Are on their business journey. And I was thinking, Man, what a freaking, you know, own goal, a PR disaster, whatever happens, even if there's no change, whether or not or people have just said, Look, I just don't trust, I don't trust these people to make decisions that are going to be even remotely not in my favor, but even neutral. And so that I just want to share that as one real life example. And by the way, obviously I haven't mentioned haven't mentioned his name, but he did say, he said, I'm happy for you to share that, just to sort of spread the word around, because people, you know, government, needs to know that people are literally making material decisions, which is going to deny the Treasury and HMRC of much needed funds because of this ineptitude. Any thoughts on that?

Nick Lincoln: 23:03

I think, I think we're all in broad agreement. There's talk, the rumors, they're going to get rid of entrepreneurial outright, aren't they? You know, it's just, it's that. It's not, it's not just, it's not just the stupidity. That's the it's the message it sends out. It's just, like, just, I don't get it. I just don't, I don't see how they, how they the politicians. Can't see that you have to have an entrepreneurial, flourishing, entrepreneurial sector in your economy, because, you know, all these massive Glaxo Smith clients were once an idea, you know, these the Marks and Spencers, whatever, whatever, big brand Lloyds Bank, that was once an idea, you know, and it was, it would have been a tiny acorn. And these acorns grow into trip. A lot of the lot of the acorns won't grow, but some of them will grow into the mighty tree trees. But if you're not playing for the acorns aren't being planted, you ain't gonna have an economy in 3040, years. You're just not. And then what? Then how you're gonna fund your little pet projects and your your causes, you know, such as our NHS and everything else. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, right. Okay. So, okay, so leading on to that ultra you got related later topic.

Andy Hart: 23:59

Yeah, my point is following on. It's again, budget related. AJ Bell, quite an interesting company for 250 I don't know the exact numbers, but keep it simple. Half of their platform is DIY clients, and half is advised to clients. So they've got good mi to see what's happening with the different client segments that they look after. And they're basically just saying there should be some form of pension tax lock, because all of this proposed changes, or ending up being no changes, is causing people to potentially do things which are financially dangerous, you know, financial self harm, etc. They said the government should limit the potential for people to financially self harm. And this article came out so it's related to it. And again, we don't know if people having a knee jerk reaction with foresight have done the right thing, but in hindsight, we will know if that makes sense. So it's just one of those tricky situations where we don't know whether or not to lead with clients pulling the trigger on a certain thing, because then again, in hindsight, it would have made 10. So or not so, it's a very, you know, challenging sort of dance that professional advisors are sort of contending with at the moment. So that's basically it. They're just saying we want a little bit more calm, rather than the government creating people to have knee jerk reaction to potentially cause harm to themselves financially. So that's it. Really any points,

Nick Lincoln: 25:20

no nothing to add to that underlying theme of the show, isn't it? It's lurking everywhere, okay? Dela Bucha,

Carl Widger: 25:29

yes, the half century Chronicles, thanks be to Jesus, Christ almighty, are nearly over. So this was a project I decided that would be a great idea when I was 49 a mere 4950 the year I'm 50, I'm gonna do 50 little videos on life lessons that I've learned along the way. Two things, I wish I didn't commit to it, but I did commit, and I am about to finish and that indeed, lesson, well done. Yeah. So the 50th one is upcoming, but it's going on so long I have probably forgotten about a number of the lessons along the way. And someone close to me did say to me this week, you need to go back and look at some of your own lessons there, please. So Whoa. So it's all, it's all really good saying it, but doing it sometimes can be the challenge. But anyway, I just wanted to put it out there, because I kind of pleased it's nearly over. I'll

Andy Hart: 26:29

be posting. Tim Fauci,

Carl Widger: 26:33

yeah, I started. It was going on too long, so I started posting two and three

Alan Smith: 26:39

together, four or five in one go.

Carl Widger: 26:42

Yeah, there was, yeah, we did a few boots because the firm that do the marketing piece first were kind of, I think they were getting well peed off of them as well. They went, what about we put them all together? Okay, I hear

Andy Hart: 26:56

you. So probably cost you 50 grand to get it well edited

Carl Widger: 26:59

in the end, yeah, I'd say a lot more than that, actually. But anyway, yeah, so boss, the ultimate lesson was you, if you decide on something and commit to it, you have to have the discipline to finish. I have finished. Yeah, well, that's true, that's

Nick Lincoln: 27:13

true, that's true. Commit, commit to something and do it. Okay, good stuff. Storyteller, John plunder,

Alan Smith: 27:22

hang on. It. Did you move around? I thought was

Nick Lincoln: 27:26

watch again, off the digital screen, not piece of paper. John plunder, okay. I thought this is brilliant.

Alan Smith: 27:36

I thought this is brilliant. So this was a an article in the Financial Times the other day. John plunder is a journalist, SENIOR EDITOR, guy at the at the FT, and he he does this big, deep dive, big, quite a long article. And I was sort of browsing through that because it was, it was really about this, this kind of story that we go on about all the time, this risk versus volatility story and and the impact of bonds in portfolios. He starts the article starts off about institutional and large kind of defined benefit pension funds, and all the issue around volatility. And it just there's a couple of quotes within it, and which are just worth me reading out. And he says the worst of it is that the notion of bonds, the notion of bonds as safe assets, is pure myth, Elroy dimson, Paul marsh and Mike Staunton in the latest UBS global investment return yearbook, points out that between October 1946 and December 1974 UK government bonds lost 70 74% of their value. In fact, UK based UK bond investors lost lost half their value during the inflationary period between 1774 and he's on to say not this is this is the the statement I thought was just incredible and kind of just enforces what we've been saying for years. He says nothing could more devastatingly highlight the mainstream. How mainstream economists, actuaries and regulators, have lost the risk and return plot. So you know, as we know, we've been talking about this, the regulator, the regulator, and I know that we individually talk about this, we get private messages from loads of different advisors. And I noticed Nick on your IFA forum shout out for that group, which I browse through from time to time. There's a lot of people who have advisors, good advisors, struggling with this as an issue, because they say, I know I agree with this. This makes sense, but my compliance department won't let me do it. And I just thought it was really good. That's a use. I'd be interested to see if the regulator ever sort of pays attention, but coming out of esteem, you know, Delroy dimson Marsh, they're the well known kind of economists researchers, and they're saying in a much more eloquent way what we've been saying. Been for years. So I thought it was interesting,

Nick Lincoln: 30:05

yep, yep. And that was, actually, was something that sissy, the people will come up to me, and that was the recurring theme. I was chatting with people there on my peers, about about how this whole risk thing is, I think that the worm is turning it's there's a real ground sort of opinion amongst the people that do this thing of ours that the risk conversation, it has been totally badly framed for the last 30 years. And we've got to start, we've got to start talking about this more openly. Andy, was your finger rose, yeah, very briefly.

Andy Hart: 30:31

I mean, the good news is a lot of these one fund solutions that we know very well and talk about, and a lot of our clients, potentially, are in them on the risk scale. They're now fives out of seven. We know the whole risk scale is total BS, but at least finally, they're realizing that 100% global equity portfolio is not an 11 out of 10. You know, it's not a 10 out of 10. It's not far up there. It's way further down. So, yeah, it is slowly turning and some bond funds during the madness of 2022 turn into six out of seven. So it's just ridiculous, but I think

Alan Smith: 31:03

we reassess their bond fund and went from super low risk to being high, the highest one of all. But that was six out of sevens. Yeah, but that was after that was

Andy Hart: 31:16

hindsight. Yeah, exactly. Trying to put the

Nick Lincoln: 31:19

tooth place back in the tube, ridiculous. Okay, another scam this time. It's not an Irish one. So then we're going to bring it up with some more UK based.

Andy Hart: 31:27

It seems like these UK scams are few and far between these days, doing their job. Okay? So this one Brace yourselves was an art investment stroke fraud, a company called Smith and partner come very, very fancy. So the article was about a 31 year old gold trader. He was the person that got scammed. He was looking for 64.6% in the first 12 months. So clearly, this gold trader isn't investing illiterate. But anyway, he went ahead and surprise, surprise, it went belly up. I mean, it's not nice that people create these scams to obviously defraud people. But for me, fraud and scams fall into two different categories. There's a deception fraud, which someone is like rung up and told that their banks closed it down they need to move money. And someone's been deceived into taking action, but they haven't gone into it with the intention to make money. The different type of fraud is called agreed fraud. You've gone into that fraud in the intention of making money. It's turned out that you've been defrauded, and then you've gone crying to someone. So this is a greed fraud. The worst part of this story the guy, this 31 year old gold trader, has tried to go after HSBC, his bank, to claim the money back after this investment, which is not an investment speculation blew up. It's mad. I mean, it's not sort of poor old banks, but my God, having to deal with these types of people investing, illiterates that just throw the money here, there and everywhere, and then going after the banks and them having to have a compliance department and a complaints department to deal with all this sort of stuff. Apparently, there's another company dealing with all the victims of this fraud. They've submitted 12 claims, sorry, 40 claims to 12 banks for 2.1 million pounds. They're all going after the banks that facilitated the move around their own money. Anyway, these things. So what's

Carl Widger: 33:35

the complaint against the bank that the bank you hit the client, the person the investor, instructed the bank to move money to this account, to get into this thing,

Andy Hart: 33:44

just just like normal transfers.

Carl Widger: 33:47

You know, bank shouldn't allow it. The

Nick Lincoln: 33:49

bank should have known it was a scam, I think, is the just gist of

Andy Hart: 33:54

it. I mean, this guy might as well sue his parents for lack of financial education after the banks. Go after your mom and dad. You know, again, the good we do, the harm we help our clients avoid, yeah, again, all these people that caught up in this, in this scam, I can't look I think, okay, here it is. It's 13 point 8 million was invested by 1000 people. So each person was 14 grand in you know, nobody with real money is gonna be doing a 14 grand pump. These are all, you know, not affluent individuals. So again, investing in financial illiterate. Anyway, it's, it pulls my blood that this guy is going after HSBC,

Alan Smith: 34:36

well, he's desperate. He's looking for anyone at all that could possibly help as well.

Andy Hart: 34:42

Alan, it's gone to a false I mean, obviously it's an unregulated investment, so false, and it's nothing to do with us. I mean, it could have landed on our laps. Is that right, potentially?

Alan Smith: 34:51

Do you know if you're trying to send money, as I you know if you just I bank with Nat West, even if

Andy Hart: 34:56

you try and send money to yourself? Alan, these days, they asked us 49 Question exactly you've got affiliate, exactly, you know, to somebody.

Alan Smith: 35:05

It's like, do you know this person? Is it a friend? And you say, it's a friend, you say, do you know that? You do have to ask. There's a lot of barriers to encourage people to think twice before they

Carl Widger: 35:14

say, then at the end they go, are you sure? Yeah,

Andy Hart: 35:16

I know. Yes, sure. Sometimes I've said someone said, No, you haven't I said, Yes, I have yes because I didn't hit the ninth Yes,

Nick Lincoln: 35:30

definitely.

Andy Hart: 35:39

You didn't scroll up 44 pages to click the final agree. Anyway, back to you. Nick Okay, good

Nick Lincoln: 35:47

stuff. Good stuff, kind of No, I gotta be careful. I phrase this my article. So there's a company called Evelyn, or Evelyn partners, IFA firm with their own discretionary fund management permissions, I believe, formerly Tilney Smith and Williamson, I think. And I don't know what, what you TRAPPIST and the trap pack think is a fair ongoing charge. Value is, is determined by the purchase of a service, not the provider. But I think, I think 1.6% per annum is about the top. 1.7 is a I think that's, that's, that's on the outer edges.

Andy Hart: 36:19

Two could be said as fair Nick two could be it's very expensive to run, you know, scalable, profitable financial advice companies, but, well, it is if you've got teams

Nick Lincoln: 36:29

doing surveys of for your staff and stuff and maybe what other pressures would call redundant people. Okay, anyway, so Evelyn, the partners we I've got access to a valuation from them, from a nice evaluation. I don't know the client's name, but I know the amount in the ISO, 336,000 pounds. The valuation was from January last year, January. 2023 the client is invested in something called CIMS cautious portfolio, which will mean the should be renamed the run out of money before you want to

Andy Hart: 37:00

have, like, real trusty, that's the real allocation, not the fees that

Nick Lincoln: 37:05

the fees. It's a combination. I guess I get that. Yeah, so this, so this, this Evelyn isa wrapper has a four different charges. One is called product ongoing costs. And these are all annual charges, product ongoing costs. And you think that would encompass everything. But no, that's that's got its own line. That's 1.53% then you've got product transaction costs, which is 0.27% I guess that's things like buying, just disbursements that the fund manager has for getting, getting information on companies and so forth. You've got the platform for you, which is point three, 6% it's not that. It's not brilliant, it's not bad. It's but it's just it's slightly average, let's say. And then you've got a service fee, which I guess is 0.68% which I presume that's for whatever ongoing service you get from from this company. And it adds up to put 2.84% My understanding is, as well, the dealing fees are still not included in these figures. And I think this is an active portfolio, and active will mean there's activity going on. It'll be, I imagine the portfolio will have a higher level of turnover, and if that's the case, that can add 80 to 100 bibs onto onto the fees that aren't, still, not, I don't believe, put out into the public domain. So we're looking at, I think, a portfolio here that's costing north of 3% per annum. It's in a cautious portfolio. Now, you know, we, I think inflation, an inflation rate that we've got to experience over lifetimes, are gonna be around four to 5% forget the government target. That's, that's the CPI is based on things that don't go up in value. We don't shop a primer. We don't always get little so you're looking at a portfolio that's got to earn well over 3% just to stand still, just to stand still each year, and to keep pace seven to 8% a year. And this is a cautious portfolio. We know what that means. That means it's 100 100% must be near 100% in bonds. I just think this is, this is what we're still up against. To me, that's, that's, I don't know how you can justify this, so I thought I just see what service you get for this three

Andy Hart: 39:04

there's north of 3% fully legal, fully compliant. Nick fully legal, fully compliant. Definitely,

Nick Lincoln: 39:09

my friend, because the services you get for paying 3% plus a year include access to and support from our back office teams. Oh, well, I'm definitely up for that. Sign me up and ongoing suitability reviews to provide a recap of previous advice and assess confirm the suitability of your tax wrappers and investments, typically every 12 months. Okay, so I'm paying you so you can tick a compliance box that you have to do that's that's a value add to me. Is that okay? Like it, although they will support you with additional contributions and withdrawals based around your overall plan, as well as the tax wrappers. Oh, so you'll do top ups for me to my existing isa each year, and that's what I'm paying you, north of 3% a year for there's very little mention of planning in any of this, either in the ongoing service or the initial service. In fact, the initial the initial plan, part of their website said it was more about products. We will help make sure you will organize your products to get them in line with your plan. Spend time to mention the plans when they. Getting the products aligned with the plan. I don't know it's I've got to be careful what I say. That just seems extremely punchy. And here we are worrying sometimes about moving clients to a platform there might be 5% five bits more expensive than than something else. Trappist make of this what you will, but there's a whole sea of mess out there, and we are just trying to swim our way out of it, slowly, any thoughts, just,

Alan Smith: 40:21

just briefly, on that, if I may. So if that is predominantly in fixed interest securities, which you got to imagine, it is described as a cautious portfolio. It's going to be 80% bonds of some description. So ignoring this for a second, what's the, what's the long term expected real rate of return from a predominantly bond portfolio? I mean, it's 2% maybe before just a bond, put one, one to two. That's just a reasonable assumption. Long term, most capital market assumptions before costs, you knock off 2% 3% on this, the client is literally going backwards is becoming materially less wealthy over time. So there, this is, this is, we talked about this before many times. This is just a silent transfer of wealth from the retail public to some investment managers, portfolio, whatever, wherever they call themselves. And it's got and it but as you say, Andy, it's legal. It's fully disclosed. It's all there. It's it's a real, real issue for the industry. It's compliant, because it's fully they've told them how much they're paying, but the client is actually not, even if they get financial planning, but actually worse off as a result, their their assets are dissolving in front of their eyes, and particularly over the long term. That's the that's the first thing. And the other thing and the other thing I'm just going to throw into the mix here is the all these comparisons of fees and costs and charges is fair enough. And there is this kind of we all know. There's a gut feel around what the total costs are. If you say 1.6 Nick Andy, you might say to your whatever in general terms, is heading down. It is going lower. The biggest challenge, though, is comparing like with like, because 1.6 for a full fat financial plan, comprehensive, you know, tax planning, real, proper, cash flow based, financial planning, always on call, all those things, bringing ideas, suggestions, recommendations, all that on a proactive basis, versus 1.4% a year of exactly that. We'll send you out a statement once a year or whatever. And this is the thing we must always remember, is we've got to compare. All right, the fees are the fees. But what is the actual service experience? What is being delivered? Because, and I should we'll probably come on to that in a second on the last or one of the last topical tidbits. But that's the key thing to be make sure we're comparing apples with apples.

Carl Widger: 42:42

Yeah, it's a fair point. Alan, and I get it. The thing that drives me mad about some of these discretionary fund managers is that what does the client, that particular client, think they're paying? So I promise you, the number that's stuck in the client's head is point six, 8% because that's what they said. That's our service fee, right? So this has happened to me a good few times in the last year or so, where clients who are with some of the bigger houses saying, oh, right, so the metazol in fee will be 1.35% but sure, I'm only paying point seven, five, where I am at the moment, and you're like, you're not, but it sounds again, you know, we have to go and demonstrate and prove, and sometimes you're kind of losing when you're explaining. So that's the other thing that really, really, really does bug me. The clients do not know that they are paying those level of fees, in my experience, and they

Andy Hart: 43:36

also don't want to feel silly that they've been duped. A bit true. There's that fallacy where they've sort of built it. They've sort of committed to it. They've told their partner that this is a safe place for a life savings again, moving away is sometimes a lot more high friction. Yeah, 100%

Carl Widger: 43:56

okay, well done for bringing it up. Nick It's important.

Nick Lincoln: 43:58

Yeah, yeah. I got to tread carefully as well, but thank you, right? So we've got to 44 minutes, guys. So watch central bank.

Carl Widger: 44:07

Yeah, just a very quick one. I thought this one was interesting. So the central bank have come out and kind of given a little slap on the wrist for investment firms and fund managers, saying that some of the advertising, some of the marketing should be falling under advertising rules, where you have to say, this is an advert. And they were kind of saying that, you know, if you're writing loads of thought leadership things, you know, that's kind of inverted advertising. So it's just interesting. It's kind of, there's, there are gray areas there. But look, any kind of stuff that the central bank can come out and bear their teeth a little bit more, I think, is a good thing. So, yeah, nothing, nothing more to say on that. But, uh, yeah, it seems like they are, they are actually putting into place, or, you know, bit of action, which is good.

Andy Hart: 44:59

So. Your half century Chronicles are going to be regulated advertising under the new rules.

Carl Widger: 45:04

Well, maybe not, but, well, we do write a lot of blogs about, you know, generally speaking. And as

Andy Hart: 45:11

you know, I create a lot of content and thought leadership, you know, yeah, non mentioning of products, general lifestyle stuff. And, yeah, okay, that gets you're

Carl Widger: 45:20

kind of thinking, um, you know, I'm and we definitely, when I'm shouting the road about it all the time, we definitely can't go the wrong side of the road on that one. So, um, yeah, it's just food for thought. Well, look, any, any, any, you know, if, if there's the writing, dear CEO letters on this stuff, then that is good. That is good. We need more regulation. We need to smarten ourselves up here.

Nick Lincoln: 45:43

Hockey, docky, thank you. Storyteller, review, consolidation. This

Alan Smith: 45:49

is the thing. Yeah, well, this is the dear CEO thing just continued. This is just highlighting. It's been all over

Andy Hart: 45:56

this again, is massive. The trade press. This is this.

Alan Smith: 45:59

So this is, this is huge. I've had a few off the record conversations with a few influential people in the last week. There's a lot of, as I say, reports out in the press. So the brief origin story is the FC AR regulator sent out what is called a dear CEO letter to the top 20 by scale, size, assets, revenue, whatever firms in the UK. So you could imagine who those companies were. You know, very well known that St James has placed, I think, with the they are the largest, and they were the first to receive this. Do you see your letter whereupon they had to take significant action to, you know, mitigate against future claims, etc, wrote off best part of half a billion pounds. Share price absolutely collapsed. It's recovered since somewhat since then. But there's another 19 to go after that. And so what I've heard is that of these 20 dear CEO letters gone out so far, 16 of them have now got section 166 orders in place, which this is the process that the FCA asks or demands the company does to effectively appoint somebody like Deloitte or KPMG or something, and they come up and you just, you know, they come into your company, lift up the floorboards, and just look at every single operation, every part of your business, every aspect of it, there was a absolute shambles. Yeah, there was a report in, I think it was city wire a few days ago where they actually, Andy, you shared this, I think, with us, but it broke down the actual the contents of the information that the FCA so obviously, this is in the public domain. The FCA have asked so they've said, put it in an Excel spreadsheet. And the level of granularity and detail that has now been required, obviously, the regulator will start with the biggest firms and work the way down. But I think one of the biggest issues is, and what I've heard from some of these people at these large organizations is possibly that not much service was being delivered in return for the fee that was being received. But even in the cases where things were being delivered, there's little or no records kept, and which is just it, just to me, it just blows my mind. A little firm like us, we, you know, it, we could document anything going back number of years, even, you know, an exchange of emails, if a client wasn't seen for whatever reason, it's very well documented. And to have some of these large organizations saying, Look, we think these reviews were carried out, but we can't prove it. And with all these external consultants going in, I think we're going to go through the next two years a really, really tough time for the industry, for the sector. I'm not sort of, you know, you're laughing at this in any way. I think it's bad for the for the whole, you know, the industry in general, when this stuff, this is just kind of new information breaking within our industry. So the trade press, money, marketing, financial advisor, new model advisor, are quoting it. This is just, ah, this is just red meat to the, you know, the Nationals, the you know, the poll, what's his name? Paul Lewis and a bunch of people like that. Just say, look, have you been paying, have you been paying a back to your point earlier. Carl, most people don't even know that they're paying for it. And there's all these instances. Well, I haven't seen my advisor for five years, six years, whatever it might be. So it's a little bit like a guy speaking to this morning was saying, this is a bit like the forest fires. They come in the very, very damaging. And sometimes forest fires are created intentionally to clear out all the dead wood, yeah. Also, things aren't growing, aren't and then the other side of that, you know, is fresh green shoots come out, you know, from from the ashes and the remains of this devastating fire. And I think we're at the beginning of an intentional forest fire across our entire sector. So kind of buckle up. It's going to be a difficult time for a lot of people in the industry for the next two to three years. I agree all we've got to do, just keep on, you know, telling the truth, doing that, doing our very best, and hope that we can avoid any of the fallout. What are your thoughts, guys,

Andy Hart: 49:51

even the good firms are petrified. Probably the bad firms are just probably not bothered. Who knows? But Just following on from the point you mentioned, the city wire phone. Focused on. I mean, they're the FCA, are focusing on many parts of this, and obviously it's wrapped up in the whole consumer duty regulation. But there's three points they're really keen on. All firms to do. I'll read out each point and loosely discuss them. So the first point they're really keen on is whether the client was assessed for their attitude to risk, and if so, when was it assessed? And evidence of it, we've already realized or already discussed, that the whole attitude to risk and investing profiling currently is broken. So they want us to double down on this broken system. It's probably going to lead to worse client outcomes in terms of badass allocation. That's my opinion. Next up, whether the client Next up, whether the client was assessed for capacity, for loss, and if so, when this was assessed, and evidence of it, we still don't know exactly what they mean by this capacity for loss. But why would the meat? Why would it be capacity for a permanent loss? You know, losses are temporary. Advances, a temporary the market fluctuates over time. So again, they're asking us to do something else, which is intellectually bankrupt. Again. The final point, I'm massively keen on any updates to the client's personal circumstances and financial objectives, goals, alongside evidence and the dates these changes were made, basically an updated lifestyle financial master plan or financial life plan that's absolutely paramount the two previous points that they mentioned, I'm not in agreeance with, but this is why we're in a bind between ticking the massive regulator and compliance box. That means we're still in business and our livelihoods are not, you know, in jeopardy and doing the right things for the clients. So every decent financial advisor is in a massive bind between doing the right things for the clients they look after and ticking the regulatory box. So, yeah, very interesting, interesting times. Yeah, yeah, nailed

Nick Lincoln: 51:52

it. Well, yeah, I think we will have similar views around attitude to risk and capacity for loss. And I'll leave it at that. There was one final point, storyteller on the on the docket, on the agenda. Have you covered it? That was that link with it you.

Alan Smith: 52:06

But what about the consolidators specifically? Yeah,

Nick Lincoln: 52:10

no, the following one is, that is what firms is asking in ongoing advice review. That was the second, well, no,

Alan Smith: 52:15

that was, that was that was it? It was just breaking down the specific details. This will look like a comprehensive Excel spreadsheet that you got to affiliate. And imagine some of these companies have got literally 10s of 1000s of clients, and you gotta have to, I mean, it's just a, just a Beyond Belief sort of level of data, admin, etc, particularly if you haven't really been had robust systems. And the other thing that kind of, it seems to be a different thing, but it's just closely related, is that the FCA has instructed a review of what they call consolidators. So all the firms that were hoovering up for the last 10 years, the smaller IFA practices and that we've all got our views on this. A lot of them, and there's lots of evidence about this, have been those are these clients. So say you sold your business Nick, or someone else, or I did, or anyone else did in the past. You sold out to a consolidator, and then part of your deal, and the reason that you got paid millions of pounds is you agreed to move your client's investment assets into the in house discretionary management service of their of choice. And if you think about the maths, how it all works, no wonder they can afford to pay quite large sums, because they're, you know, they're taken as, you know, as you've just described a moment or two ago. If you're taking 3% a year or taking a large slice of that 3% internally, then it all adds up. So the regulator have sort of somewhat belatedly got wise to all this and said, Hang on a minute. Is this truly in the investor and the client's interests. The advisor sells up the assets are then put across to something which arguably, and again, we don't know, but arguably, could they could be worse off in terms of cost performance and everything else. So there's a big review now about to be undertaken on the whole consolidation market, which, as we know, has been, you know, billions and billions of pounds of the last 10 years has been consolidated from smaller firms into large players. So there's a lot going on in our space right now.

Nick Lincoln: 54:10

Yep, yep. Well, Said, Okay, we've got one final point to get through on the docket. This is the many people think. It's the biggest, the biggest conference that we're involved in So Carl, the limerick, Chamber of Commerce annual event is happening. Oh, oh, let's,

Andy Hart: 54:26

let's bring that. Let's bring the mood up. Two weeks from today, we have got humans under management London, which is Europe's biggest financial planning conference. Yes, we've got a great lineup of practicing financial advisors and experts, we sold out three months before we are kicking off. And if you've got a ticket, thank you so much for coming. If you didn't get a ticket, be a bit more proactive. Next year, I am actively looking for a larger venue, and I've got a venue to see actually in a couple of weeks time, that I'm hoping it's going to be perfect. So next year, we're hopefully going for 450 this year we are close to. At 350 So, yep, just keeping building the event. That's it back to you. Nick to kick off the excellent potatoes.

Nick Lincoln: 55:08

Thanks Ultra. Thank you. Okay, 55 minutes in. Okay, so meat and potatoes for this one. We have touched on this in the past, but I think it's, it's worth going back to this, because then we we underestimate, or rather, we ignore our health at our own peril, especially if you're if any advisor, whether you're employed or own your own business, you're carrying the weight of, I don't know whether it's 80 to 120 families, hopes and aspirations on your shoulders all of the time, even when you think you're not, your, your your your your subconscious mind will be wearing stuff away, and it is. It is a burden, and we need to make sure our brains are sharp. We need to make sure that our bodies are sharp, especially those of us that like to imbibe the old glass of warm Sherry, perhaps sometimes unnecessary extra glass of warm sherry. How do we how do the Track Pack keep the cells fit in both mind and body? Well, relatively fit. That is the subject for this. For this meeting potatoes,

Andy Hart: 56:00

how do we burn the candle at both ends? Is that we trying to say,

Nick Lincoln: 56:03

that is exactly what I'm saying. And I like the size of your wick. Andy, I've got to say, Okay, so we're going to start off with, I think storytellers going to

Alan Smith: 56:13

lead off. I mean, embarking on this conversation with with you journalism and hoping that some of you keep a straight face, and we talk about health and fitness is, it's an endeavor, but it's one worth trying. So, yeah, we thought we'd bring this up. I introduced that in an early episode, the concept of becoming a corporate athlete, what a statement that is, because you have, you have to be somewhat fit. I mean, you hit the nail on the head at varying times in my career, the job has been really stressful. And is either something, just something going on internally, externally, a client issue, and it does kind of keep you awake at night, these things. So being of healthy, you know, sound mind and body, I think it's just really important. And so four of us, obviously, we meet socially, etc. We do partake in the odd glass of sherry and whatever else is lying around. So we thought we'd just sort of chat through this kind of, what are the various sort of tools and tactics that we use. So I'm just going to just rattle through a few of the things that I find help me in order to, you know, to keep in that relatively good shape might in your mind, mind and body. So the first thing is, I've got a we've got a personal trainer. So Andrew is a guy who I meet twice a week, and all that is primarily as I said to him once. And there are, there are some similarities, honestly, and I'm going to shoehorn in financial planning here, because I said to him once, he didn't, he didn't love it. I said, I pay you to count to 10, don't you? Because he just, I lift the weight. He goes one, two, repetition I pay that's the main but the main thing I pay him for, frankly, is accountability. Because on those cold, early, raining mornings, and I know that I've got this, like, six foot tall South African skinhead standing, you know, in the gym across waiting for me to arrive. I can't just, you know, switch off the alarm and roll over go back to sleep. So I've got a personal trainer, and that gives me a framework for making sure I show up and do some exercise of some sort. And as I say, in financial planning, we play the role of accountability coaches quite often. The other thing I try to do, and I'm really interested when you guys start, because you guys are far better walkers than me say that carefully walkers better walking. I know Nick is just as crazy the number of steps that he puts in and Carl as well. So I aim to do seven and a half 1000 steps every day. I mean that which is lower than the kind of ambitious 10,000 steps I find it just I'm not, I'm quite a fast walker. But I I used to walk to my office and careful and or there, or there, there or back. And even though that is about four miles, so it was, it was still only about six, 7000 steps. And it would take me an hour to do that. So doing 10,000 steps feels to me that's two hours a day, which is tricky for me at the moment. So I aim to get, you know, an hour of movement which is walking as part of my part of my plan. The other thing, and this is probably the biggest impact for me, because, as they say, you know, fitness and health is is created in the kitchen, not the gym, necessarily. So what I consume, I'm quite careful. Now, getting more careful. I've been a big proponent of the idea of intermittent fasting, so, and I've just dissolved that down to I have this concept of omad om ad, which is one meal a day. So I generally eat one meal a day. I use a service called Green Chef. So they deliver to me these sort of pre like boxes, but you cook them yourself, raw ingredients. So you know, single ingredient foods, whether that's a a chicken or whatever, but with vegetables and I and within that, I avoid or minimize exposure to carbs. And carbs are full of sugar, as we all know. So that so my diet is kept relatively healthy by eating one meal a day and making sure it's predominantly low carb, low sugar. And I have, on occasions in the past, I've done 48 hour fasts. I want to do a 72 hour fast quite soon. And it's a really interesting concept, this idea of fasting, it sounds impossible, but it's weird how the you know, the body has this ability, but we're all storing loads and loads of fat on us, and you could, you get a certain level an energy boost after so they haven't eaten anything for 24 hours, and you can comfortably go again. So look that. That's my starter for 10 in terms of just basic program to try to keep relatively sane. Not the fittest guy in the world by any means, but it could be a lot, a lot worse. Who wants to go next?

Nick Lincoln: 1:00:48

And you go next, you've got five pints and four. What's that?

Andy Hart: 1:00:55

Okay, so what do I do? Bit of an in joke there. Nick, you can hear it. You can hear that story at trap live. Oh, yeah, still working on it, still working on it. Now. So what do I do? Yeah, I like to keep fit, both body and mind. The main thing I do is running. I suppose I've been running for 20 years. Pandemic, sorry, sirens, sirens, thank you. Running from running most of my adult life, been going to the gym. Most of my adult life, I get on most days and do some form of physical exercise. At the moment, I'm probably only running about two or three times a week whenever I'm away, which is quite frequently I get up and run around a random city. So that's all good. I do quite a lot of weight training with mainly dumbbells at home, so YouTube workouts and stuff. But recently I've got this horrible condition called weight lifters elbows, like tennis elbow, golfers, elbow, gardeners, elbow, absolute killer. So yeah, that's mainly the most of the stuff that I've done when I was in my 20s. I did quite a lot of kickboxing and boxing, so I got into quite good shape doing that, I worked with a PT for about five or six years. I stopped that when COVID kicked off, but I can understand, you know, the benefits of it, and I'll work with a coach again in the future. Food wise, I use a food service called Pot o gold, which deliver small, microwavable meals, perfect for sort of busy people. I don't really know what else to say. Really, I suppose I dabble in a little bit of tech here, there and everywhere. Why? Why do you deepen the most? Why do you do it? Why do I do What? Why do you have this Why do you have this fitness regime? I just want to keep fit. I intentionally buy quite tight fitting clothes so don't put on any weight. I did hear Jimmy Carr once saying, one of his talks that he's got a low level eating disorder, and they just sent me to bring the eyes is exactly what I've got. But I'll move on from that. So I have very small portions. I'm out quite a bit. And again, it's balancing both things, isn't it? You know, I like a drink as such, but then I need to sort of offset that with working out the next morning sleeps. Keith wouldn't talk about sleep, I suppose. Obviously, if you've had a couple of drinks, sleeps all over the shop. That's basically what happens with me. If I don't have a drink, then obviously sleep is a lot better. So I, you know, I track my sleep, as it were, mainly through my eye watch. And here's the controversial thing. In recent times, I have started to mouth tape when I go to bed.

Unknown: 1:03:41

Here we go. There's a lot of benefits

Andy Hart: 1:03:44

to mouth vaping. Does she object here? The benefits your sleep quality improves, your enhanced oxygenation. Reduce Risk of sleep apnea. You don't snore, so your other half, your partner, doesn't want to kill you and kick you out. And also improves your jawline. And I've been doing it for about a month now. It's all the rage on the inter on the interweb. Obviously you boys have not got the memo. But like all things, I bring them up, you take the piss and you do them in three months time or six months time. So I'm awaiting to hear your mouth taping stories, training regime.

Alan Smith: 1:04:28

I need to know what you literally tape across your mouth when you go to bed.

Andy Hart: 1:04:34

There's many different types of mouth. It's like a small plaster that you just put over your mouth so it just enhances mouth breathing. Oh, breathing out your mouth is terrible while sleeping. Hence you tape your mouth, but you're naturally inclined to breathe out your mouth versus your nose.

Carl Widger: 1:04:52

I'm out of 50 years. It's gone. Okay?

Andy Hart: 1:04:54

This is not me coming out with some new wacky idea all the people you. Follow online that you know

Nick Lincoln: 1:05:03

don't get defense by this.

Andy Hart: 1:05:06

I've only been doing them. I've been aware of it for three or four years, and I've been like, you guessing

Carl Widger: 1:05:10

defensive Nick, okay? And I was like, No,

Andy Hart: 1:05:14

that's not gonna be me, that's not gonna be me, that's not gonna be me. And then, after the 4000s advert, I was like, right let me go to Amazon and check out mouth taping. So me, Pierre and Pete again, two close mates of mine. We're sort of part of this sleep mouth taping.

Nick Lincoln: 1:05:31

Anyway, you share notes about your mouth taping experiences you've

Andy Hart: 1:05:35

never that before. Have you mouth taping gang right now, I've seen

Nick Lincoln: 1:05:39

some videos, and they're quite hard.

Andy Hart: 1:05:44

Search History.

Nick Lincoln: 1:05:46

We'll do Carl first, so we'll go from Andy small portions to you. Carl, how are you? How's your body?

Carl Widger: 1:05:53

Nice? Yeah, yeah. I got to be honest about this, right? So a little bit like somebody saying to me, you need to look at your own half century Chronicles. I'm good sometimes. I'm not so good sometimes, and I'm mostly probably somewhere in between. The Walking is the one thing that I am consistently good at, because it frees my brain and just helps me, I think regulate myself is probably a good way of putting it. So I do. I'm like myself and Nick are always showing off, but Nick is always more than me, but my one year watch tells me that I'm averaging 11,170 steps a day. So I do consistently do 10,000 a day. I'm on a streak at the moment and trying to beat my best streak, which was 44 days, which I'm gonna do. So that's probably the one that I'm most, most most consistent at, and probably does help me the most. Back in 2018 I met a guy called Joe O'Connor, who was my personal trainer. Joe's, uh, actually doing a PhD at the moment. He's a sports scientist, and he was brilliant, because he introduced me to the my zone belt. It's basically a heart rate monitor, and it's kind of gamified. Is that the the word I'm looking for? So I have to do 1300 maps. Don't ask me what maps means. But the higher your heart rate, the more maps you get per exercise and all that kind of stuff, and you go through various levels. So I'm at Hall of Fame because I've done it for five whole years in a row. Would you believe, which I know is very hard to believe. And you'll also realize that the 1300 isn't exactly a massive target. If they're

Andy Hart: 1:07:36

looking for a postage hole for the advert, I say hold fire with you. Carl,

Carl Widger: 1:07:41

yeah. Thanks for that. I think definitely not going to get defensive. Yeah. So Josh Joe, as Joe became a pal of mine, and sometimes when I'm not doing so good on it all, I will reconnect with Joe, and Joe kind of does a couple of sessions with me, which is really good. I've been totally open that back in 2018 at the Munster high performance leadership course, I met Dr Patrick Ryan, who is a psychologist. And I do regular check ins with Patrick, and I don't do them. When I say regular, they're probably not that often anymore, but they did definitely, definitely sitting down and talking to somebody who I trust and who knows my story inside and out, definitely does help me. And I suppose I've a couple of years back. You boys know I suffered from burnout, right? So it just all came in on top of me, everything at one time, and I took a couple of weeks off work. And I suppose I'm always trying to acknowledge, am I, am I on? Am I on that path again? Because I've never, never want to get on that path again. And and what I would say is like, so we're met as Ireland. At the moment, we're absolutely flying it. It's really, really busy. We've a lot of new staff. The team is growing, and all that kind of stuff. So it's all really, really good, and yet sometimes I do feel the pressure, you know? So it's not necessarily the pressure, and this burnout thing doesn't necessarily just happen, you know, if things are bad or you're going through a couple of bad moments, it can also happen when it's just so busy that I'm like going, and I can I know when I feel it, because I'm really good at making decisions. And just keep going, keep going, keep going. And what happens is I get a little bit frozen in the decision making when I'm when everything starts to come in on top of me. That's my that's my cue to go and talk to Patrick. Go and get Joe, get there's a couple of mates of mine that I'll go for a walk with, you know, that kind of stuff. So I would say, you know, look, it's an awful cliche, and it's probably out there on social media too much, right? But it is okay not to be okay. It totally is. And I'm, I suppose, the older I. Yet, the more I don't mind saying it that sometimes I'm not okay, and sometimes I do. And thankfully, those times are much fewer and far between than they used to be, but it is something that I am very, very conscious of, and I do right now. A lot of this is self talk, right? Because everything is very, very busy, and I do need to get back to a pretty strict regime, and that's what works for me, talking to somebody, and get into a strict regime, get myself back on track, and get everything kind of home and again. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of what works for me. But like, you're right, Andy, I'm not the poster child. And it's like, I'm not, I'm not, you know, defensive, you know, no, no, no, but I'm just being, let's be realistic about this. Like, I do a lot of these things a lot of the time, but there are times I don't do pretty much

Nick Lincoln: 1:10:49

any work. We're all falling Yeah, and that

Carl Widger: 1:10:52

that that's what doesn't work for me. I need to, you know, sometimes get a, give myself a kick in the backside, or someone else give me a kick in the backside to go and do it. So, yeah, that's pretty much me.

Andy Hart: 1:11:02

Yeah, the burnout thing definitely is real. It hit me really badly a few years ago, and I to just completely cut off for a while, but now I've just got way better at recognizing when it's bubbling and you just need to take a step back. Not do so many things, not juggle so many balls, not launch so many new projects, pass way more things to the team. Yeah, I've just got way better at recognizing when it when it's

Carl Widger: 1:11:26

brewing. I couldn't have said it better myself. Andy, that's exactly it like it's it's you when you feel it brewing, right? That it's coming to be able to acknowledge that is a key, key skill, right? Yeah, key sometimes we don't. We know next time when

Andy Hart: 1:11:38

your phone, eating, well, less drinking, sleep in bed. You've just got to cut all the bad and increase good.

Carl Widger: 1:11:45

There's two words, Andy, I you know, it's time and space. So when it starts coming in, all right, I now need, no, I need time and space. Everyone needs to give me time and space, and that's what works to but you do need to check yourself out of the the treadmill that is busy, busy work life, and just take a step back and everyone will be better first you, you first and foremost, but everyone around you, professionally and personally, will be better if you do take that time and space.

Nick Lincoln: 1:12:16

Okay, great stuff. Thanks for sharing that both of you guys. Okay, so just quickly wrap this up. So as you will know, TRAPPIST of all for the trap back, I am the one who works the most in isolation. I have a lifestyle business, Andy is a solo advisor, but he has various brands, and he interacted with people. I don't really have that except when I'm interacting with my clients. So I've got these four walls around me in my my home office, I'm at my desk at 630 in the morning. I sleep pretty well. I put my head on the pillow, and I'm just I'm gone much, much to TLP annoyance, because she's not a great sleeper. But I'm down at my desk at 630 in the morning. I do two to three hours prepping for the week, prepping for the day ahead of I've got client planning meetings, dealing with emails, and then about 930 I just get out and if there's one thing I was said to do, and Carl Lincoln, it sounds so basic and petty if you're feeling blue, and I have times when I for no reason, there's nothing particularly in the front of my mind, I just feel a bit blue. I don't you know, we all just go through different biorhythms and different different cadences, and we just change sometimes. And I just get yourself out the front door and go for a walk. Just just go for a walk. Get yourself off your ass and go for a walk. Doesn't matter if it's a mile or it's four miles. You can go with something in your ears, or you can just go and listen to the world, whatever, but get off your ass and go for a walk. And I average about 14,000 steps a day. So today I walk and I play tennis. I like, I like I'm quite competitive. I like tennis. I like ball sports. And so I walk to tennis, I walk back. And by 1130 this morning, I've done 12,000 steps, having already worked three hours from 6:30am in terms of and again, Penny had put me onto this. I was I was, I'm quite lanky, but I'm not having got, never had muscle definition, because I've always had people pay people to lift things up for me. Basically, it's just

Unknown: 1:13:58

aristocratic

Nick Lincoln: 1:14:01

genes, whatever you wherever you wherever you want to label it so. And if you see this, I've got this in a dumbbell. These are, these are 10k dumbbells, which I've got in my office. They're they're cracking, and they're in because they're in my office, and they're small, they're always in sight. And I just get up and do reps on those. And I feel I've done over the last year or so, I've actually got some muscle definitely, it's hard to put muscle definition on once you go, once you're not you go once you're north of 50, but I have got some. I feel so much better in myself for it. Not I'm never going to be a bodybuilder, but I just feel better. I think I look better. And this is all linked to you want to be your best for your clients, right? You don't. If you're eating poorly, you're going to feel poorly, you're going to come across poorly. I don't care how you try and cover it up. If you're feeling like a slob, you're going to think like a slob, and you're going to come over as a slob. I want to be clean with my thoughts. I want to feel good and vibrant and energized. I don't feel guilty. I've just walked down two double cheeseburgers, so I'm careful about my diet as well. That's the final thing I'll come on to here and now the culture corner bit I'll link to a book I read in 2014 So we have no idea of the damage that sugar and white flour has done to our diet and corn syrups over the last 60 years. And it's it's everywhere, unless you cook from home, from scratch, pretty much you've got to be so careful. Really, watch diet. Watch what you're eating. If you're feeling blue, get off your ass and go for a walk and just do some resistance, some light weights, whatever. You don't have a big buddy home gym or anything, just get some dumbbells and just do a little workout that the internet will tell you. I didn't know anything. I didn't know what a, you know, a Rip Curl, what all these different things you can do and different types of things you can do with dumbbells. But it's, it's on there on YouTube, you can make yourself a lovely program and work through it. Keep doing it. You'll feel better. You'll be better set in your mind, which means you'll do a better job for your clients. And that's what one is planning to do the best we can for our clients. So our clients. So that's why I think Fitness is important. If you're working on your own, you've got to get out, otherwise you're going to be like Jack Nicholson The Shining you know, you're going to go, you're going to go cabin Kevin fever crazy and end up trying to kill your wife, which I haven't done yet, by the way. Anyone listen to this? Okay? So that is fair done on this one. Okay, so we're at 76 minutes. Andy, you

Andy Hart: 1:16:04

got finger raised? No, no, no, no, yeah. Final points. I mean, you just brush past it, but YouTube is an absolute treasure trove for fitness. Anything related to fitness got loads of stuff for yoga, loads of stuff for calisthenics, loads of stuff for weight workouts. I don't personally listen to any fitness podcasts. But I listened to a lot of podcasts about fitness, if that makes sense, usually, Chris Williamson, Diary of the CEO, that sort of stuff. Does anyone else have any thoughts on podcast?

Nick Lincoln: 1:16:33

Mouth, mouth taping for beginners, that's

Andy Hart: 1:16:38

that's a good one on

Alan Smith: 1:16:40

Spotify. I who are watching this, car was just in summary, I did a program about seven years ago, and the what the guy who was running it was all about, you know, healthy mind and body and everything else. And he just started by saying it was like, you like to talk about Nick, like reverse, and you begin with the end in mind. He said, think back to a time when were you just on great form. You just, you felt great. You're just, you're mentally acute, mentally sharp. What had gone on that day, that week, that month, and it's very clear, the stating, The bleeding obvious, but it's all those things. I was really well rested. Had a, you know, good quality sleep. I was eating healthy, and I was hydrating, and I was moving. You don't have to go to the gym 15 times a day, but as you say, Nick step, step outside, and all those things combined result in this position where you just, you kind of, you're up for it. Things come at us all the time, good things and lots of good things, and just having the mental agility and the, you know, the frame of mind to just, you know, to attack them, to take advantage of them, to sort of sort out issues and challenges and problems, and it's a combination of all those things. I don't think any of us are claiming that we're Bloody, you know, God's gift, or any of these things, physical exercise or mental health, no, but I think we're all making a reasonable effort. And I think anyone listening in a anyone listening in or tuning into this is probably doing the same thing and and it's just so, so important. We work so much in the human to human business, and you've got to show up as the best version of you as a human being.

Andy Hart: 1:18:18

Okay, finish with a final quote I heard the other day in relation to drinking and alcohol. Nobody ever wakes up in the morning and said, Oh, I wish I had a drink last night. Thought was quite a poignant quote. Anyway, over to you, Nick,

Nick Lincoln: 1:18:36

okay, right. Let's go to TRAPPIST questions, because I can see Posty hauling the bulging sack of TRAPPIST questions up my drive, and she's bringing in the front doorbell. The front doorbell isn't working for some reason. Nevermind. I can see her in my little strange world, and we are going to open up this sack and pull out the TRAPPIST question. Let's see who this one is from. This is from a chat now. This was posted on the 19th of March, so we are getting through the TRAPPIST questions, but here we are on up to but here we are in October, so we'll be at seven months, seven months behind. And if you want to pose a question to us, of course, in the show so called show notes, there's a link there. You can just click on that and leave a question and or you can do so via our pinned tweet on X, our pinned X on tweet, whatever you want to call it. Okay, Ashton Ward is the chaps name. He's on Twitter as at, at at Ashton Ward, 01, he's not an IFA. He, I believe. He runs a recruitment business, an executive search, interim management and consulting, not an IFA. Question is Hi question for the track team, these, do you advise your clients to invest a proportion of their portfolio themselves on an investment platform? Which investment platforms, if any, do you recommend and why? Which investment platform has the greatest choice of investments in the lowest fees? Thank you so much. Ashton's about 17 questions in there, but we'll give you a part in this one. Ultra you lead off?

Andy Hart: 1:19:53

I don't know, but I would recommend him running off to either boring money or money to the masses. And they have done. On this question to death, compared all the fees or the portfolio values, how many times you're going to trade? There's way more qualified companies and individuals out there that can answer that question, boring money and money to the masses. I thought

Alan Smith: 1:20:17

Hogan's down. So might be something you might talk about. What's, what about the original question, which is, to do, would you advise, if you're an advisor, would you advise your clients to go off and and, you know, open up an account on, never, choose, choose, choose, funds. Yeah. I mean, the answer to that again, is no. Why would you why would you go, Yeah, but see a doctor or something, and say, Yeah, I'll look after your entire, you know, hell back, buying a few,

Carl Widger: 1:20:49

no but, but, but, but maybe the question kind of alludes to the what we spoken about before, about, and I think that's appropriate, right? If, if your financial plan tells you that, you know it has answered the question, we are going to be okay, and there is going to be enough, and our legacy is being looked after, in terms of the kids, all that kind of stuff. Is it appropriate for someone to carve out 5% or so and do a bit of trading themselves? If that's what they want to do? Absolutely, you can go for it. Yeah, I think that's okay. I think I've only got the rest of the questions are more kind of UK based. So I I think I've got that.

Andy Hart: 1:21:29

I think I want maybe two or three clients have about close to 60 that do that they have an account elsewhere that they're pissing around with. So it's a very minimal thing in my world. It might be different with other advisors that work with different types of democratic graphics of a client. But yeah, I've got minimal that are doing that we do legacy stuff they've already accumulated shares in app, yeah, and stuff that I'm I'm never gonna say, Look, don't sell your 100 grand in Apple and shift over here. Then Apple does 4x the next year. And then I'm like, four fold again. We're in a bind.

Nick Lincoln: 1:22:01

Four fold, the following map, whatever

Andy Hart: 1:22:03

do you know what

Alan Smith: 1:22:04

I mean? I can't see. I can't see past Hargreaves. Lands down as a platform. They're not the cheapest, but all the things you want, range of funds, one of my individual stocks, the information, the calculators, all the stuff, efficiency, they are just the best of them are what they what they

Andy Hart: 1:22:21

do. Brilliant app, yeah, calculators.

Nick Lincoln: 1:22:24

I mean, if I'm giving a steer to someone, not necessarily written advice, but I, I have got, personally, a little bit pin money on the Vanguard platform, because I just wanted to see how it works. I've got 500 quid on there. And that's very obviously, you're limited to Vanguard's range. But this comes back to this other question. You know, limited fund range? Well, if you've got one fund that invests in all the great companies of the world, that is your fund range. In one fund, you don't need x number of funds, but that's going down a different avenue. The Vanguard site is very slick. It's very quick. It's, you know, click, click, click, click, you're done. Yeah, Bob's your uncle. I said. Gia and pension perhaps might be for people who are starting, who want to go off on their own. That might be something that will come up in a conversation. Okay, thank you, Ashton, thank you for your question. Do appreciate that. I think, gents, now we're running into, what, 83 minutes, someone shoot me. We're gonna move on to culture corner. Here's hoping that the thing actually works. Wonder why TRAPPIST questions didn't work. Strange, the universe moves a stranger. Oh, that's working. Okay, I'll pause it. Okay. Culture corner, we're going to start off. I'm not going to tell you who's starting off because they know and they're

Carl Widger: 1:23:31

prepped to go, aren't they? Smith, thank

Alan Smith: 1:23:33

you. I knew already, Carl, but thank you for the support. I appreciate it. I'll reciprocate.

Unknown: 1:23:38

I'll just be the best boy in the class.

Alan Smith: 1:23:40

Must, uh, appreciate it. I want to share a book that I've recently read. The author is now, as of yesterday, a close personal friend, because, because the on x and anyway, it's called the 8020 principle, achieve more with less, by a gentleman called Richard cock, K, O, C, H, and this is, this is, this is nothing new. You know the old Pareto Principle. I know that Carl, you mentioned a book before Dan Sullivan book, which is, I can't remember as long as similar some of the lines. I just thought this every now and again, you to be really reminded. And I caught, he's very practical. He's a sort of serial entrepreneur. Richard is, you know, bought group, grew businesses. And he just applied this principle to everything, in terms of, you know, there are 20% of your clients that generate 80% of the revenue. There are 20% of your problems created by 80% and so apply to every aspect of your life and some real good practical insights and advice. It's a quick read, and I got a lot out of it. So 8020 principal, Richard cop, thank you very much.

Nick Lincoln: 1:24:56

Great stuff. Thanks. Storyteller. Mine is linked to our bean meter, potato. Around fitness and diet and so forth. And it's a book that came out in 2014 and I read it in 2014 and it influenced me. It's called the Big Fat surprise by Nina Ty Colts. And this is a lady who studied this ongoing question, why have we got raging obesity in the West, and then all the related illnesses that go with it, especially diabetes, which has come in in the last sort of 70 years or so, when in the West, we've massively changed our diet. We've moved we've been told the saturation fats are bad. We've moved away from dairy, we've moved away from eggs, we've moved away from red meat. And instead, we've gone to oils, polyunsaturated oils, these rapeseed oil, sunflower oil, we've gone to corn syrup. There's loads more sugar in our diet. We're eating loads more pulses, and yet we're getting fatter and fatter and fatter. And this book just on it reveals, you know, it looks into the history of all this. I won't go into it now, but it's really interesting. There's a lot of bad advice given to Americans in the early 60s, which is still the case and we and the premise is that human beings have lived for hundreds of 1000s of years on a diet of fat and meat. And absolutely, that's what our bodies are designed to do. And the modern diet completely buggers about with our insulin levels. So much is dependent on our insulin is that the pancreas is like all the vital organs. It's so important. And our diets now, we don't know when we're sated. We just keep on eating and eating, and that's where you see all these fat surprise, and it sounds very dry and academic. It's really interesting, really well written, and it'll just open your eyes a bit. And there we go. That's my that's my one.

Carl Widger: 1:26:33

I'm next. Thanks very much for that Nick. I appreciate it. I'd like to recommend a book called How to retire by Christine Benz, which Andy actually mentioned last on the last episode, and I did download it. It's 20 lessons for a happy, successful and wealthy retirement. I'll be totally honest. I'm only halfway through, but I thought it good enough that I sent the link to a client of ours who is about to or has just actually retired, because there was, there's kind of interviews with with people in it, and it goes away from necessarily just money, right? It's more about having a purposeful retirement, etc. So, um, I'm hoping and expecting that the second half of the book is as good as the first half. And I just did think that, you know, good one for clients who are approaching that. Because I, you know, we often do underestimate that massive, massive transition. You know, we're talking about, yeah, the money, and are we going to be okay, and all that kind of stuff. But you know, especially, I think business owners who are, who's everything is linked to their self esteem, almost is linked to their their identity, or their role as a business owner or senior execs in these multinationals. So I think it's something that's really, really important. So, yeah, I'm halfway through, and I recommend it so far. Anyway.

Andy Hart: 1:27:59

Cool. Okay, my final topical sorry culture corner, all four of them are loosely financial related, which is interesting. Mine's a podcast the economics of Everyday Things podcast, and it's by the Freakonomics family. They're quite short episodes, and they go into sort of a wide ranging topics, but do check it out. I'm big fan of Freakonomics, and I like the economics of Everyday Things. Back to you. Nicholas, cool,

Nick Lincoln: 1:28:29

right? I think we're done, aren't we? We've done culture corner. We're at just under an hour and a half.

Unknown: 1:28:35

Good grief.

Nick Lincoln: 1:28:36

Okay, dear trappers, I think that's a wrap, isn't it? For this episode, we're all happy with that. Please do leave a six out of five star review on iTunes or whatever app lets you leave a review. Do like and subscribe to us on our YouTube channel, our burgeoning YouTube channel, we really are near 1000 subscribers, which is still something I can't quite wrestle with, but that's great. Thank you very much. But until the next time, unless Andy you want to mumble something under your breath, as you normally do, at

Andy Hart: 1:28:57

this time, I will say I'm going to be organizing some mouth tape to be sent to Watford for TLP to put over you so she can sleep in the same bedroom as you Nick and not sleep in the other bedroom. So I might have just

Nick Lincoln: 1:29:09

saved your marriage. Thank

Alan Smith: 1:29:10

you very much for the next episode of trap,

Nick Lincoln: 1:29:15

right? Dear trap is that's it. We're done. Thank you for your precious time. Take care out there. We will see you all in two weeks time. Adios, get out of my computer. Go on, go

Unknown: 1:29:25

go bye, bye, bye, bye.