TRAP: The Real Adviser Podcast

66 - From Panic to Poise: Guiding Clients Through Market Volatility

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In this latest pile of TRAP, the Trap Pack discuss

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Unknown:

Music, welcome to the real advisor podcast, T, R, A, P, trap. Please follow us and join in the conversation on Twitter at advisor podcast, where you can suggest ideas and themes you'd like the trap team to discuss. Also remember to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a six out of five star review on iTunes. Doing all this really, really helps us, which means we can do more to help you. Now, let's head over to the studio for the latest pile of trap you

Nick Lincoln:

Yes, indeed, dear TRAPPIST, welcome back to what many people are calling episode 66 of the real advisor podcast, T, R, A, P, trap Carl, just made in my name is indeed nickenn, and joining me as ever in the digital studio of doom are The three other horsemen of the fuck. Alex Carl delachi, would you? Andy Ultra heart and Alan the story teller. Smith, Now, gentlemen, we have a show packed full of app,

Andy Hart:

absolutely nothing, so let's start on packing it straight away with some more high energy review reads, read out by my very good friend. Andrew ursain Hart, thank you, Nick, you're a pro, aren't you? Mate, a couple of reviews today. First one is from Ben Hayward entitled, no frills, simple but reassuringly brilliant, advice, tips, insights and banter. Six stars, having left a large national restricted advice firm to set up a new IFA business, I found this podcast a complete godsend. I've learned and implemented so much from what I have heard on here, and the fact that our fledgling business survived the first 12 months is now thrive and is now thriving is in no small part down to these four splendid chaps and Nick's awesome Google Group. Haven't got a Google work with you Nick, an absolute must for any advice, and I matter the stage in their career. Even got to meet Alan and Andy today at hum disproving the adage of never meet your heroes. Final one is from Clive Thompson, fellow colleague, ex colleague of mine, good guy entitled, a constant source of inspiration and insight as a regular listener of the real advisor podcast. I love the format, stories, the insights, the banter and even Nick sound effects. Your interview with YouTuber James shack in Episode 57 was eye opening, not only in hearing about the incredible success he's achieved in building his business and attracting new clients, but the simple way he's packaged up and showcased his expertise, it was amazing. Congratulations Track Pack for building such an independence resource for both seasoned and aspiring financial advisors. Six out of five stars. Keep up the fantastic work. Back to you, boss, well done. Andrew, you got there. Very good. Thank you, dear. Reviews. They are well, they just mean the world to us, and they keep us going. And do, of course, leave a review on iTunes or your podcast app of choice, if you're allowed to six out of five stars, is the mandatory minimum. Now, Episode 66 let's put a topical time stamp on it. What's going on in the world? Well, there's one big thing going on. This thing about Ultra we have some very exciting news trap, live, 2025 we finally got our act together, and we have the tickets now ready. Let's just say there's been quite a bit going on behind the scenes. But anyway, we are ready to launch. We've emailed our list. If you're not already on the list, you should subscribe to it. But anyway, the tickets are now live, and the best place to find them is go to the website, all one word, the real advisor, podcast, advisor with an e.com grab your tickets there. We're very excited to see you there. We have some us for there and some other familiar faces. We've got Samantha Russell doing a talk and a few other hopefully special guests at the Royal College of Physicians in Regents Park, which was the ex home of humans under management. If you've been there before you know it, six till 930 so grab your tickets. We're looking forward to welcome you, aren't we, a gentleman,

Unknown:

yes, yeah. So excited to

Andy Hart:

work out what the hell we're going to be talking about, but it would be good as you say, yeah. We hope it's going to be a lovely, sunny day. We've got access to the garden. It's a wonderful venue, so please do come along. Also, just to mention, it's sort of sandwich between a couple of other events. On the in the day, there's the Brett Davidson conference for his sort of subscribers and people that part of his course, and the following day, it's our good friend, Abraham Sanyo advisor 3.0 so if you're in London, you got a triple. Whammy. Obviously, we know what's going to be the highlight, but

Nick Lincoln:

it's up for you to decide. I think Abraham is is even more of a friend of the show at the minute, isn't he? I think we really love Abraham, don't we? Abraham. Abraham.

Unknown:

Abraham. So yeah, the real advisor podcast.com. Grab your tickets.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, great stuff. Great, great. Just

Carl Widger:

before, just before we go out. Like, if people only knew what went on in the background to get to this moment,

Unknown:

right? Yeah? Like, like, you've got to come and support

Andy Hart:

us to be fair. I mean, putting on an event is is difficult, isn't it? I mean, and Andy's been putting them on for years, but, oh my god, you think we'll just, you know? Yeah, he's just simple.

Unknown:

But there's so many other people going, No, I think we should do it this way. There's so many moving parts

Andy Hart:

opinions by any of us was the Yeah, we've got agreement in the end,

Unknown:

yeah, we'll do whatever you say, Andy, but we'll pick up on everything you do. Yeah, go ahead and do it, Jesus Christ, the

Andy Hart:

wrong email, the wrong frame in the wrong date, the wrong time, the wrong pricing.

Carl Widger:

It was totally the highlight, though, of this journey so far last year, wasn't it? It was just amazing. Yeah, we had so much fun putting it on and the, you know, the meeting everybody afterwards. It was, it was brilliant. So

Andy Hart:

look, I think that's a thing. Carl, it's this thing called community, community, yeah, people like minded it's a self selecting audience. People who listen to this, they're all on a journey, all trying to improve, all sharing best practice and ideas. And you get in a room with another 150 or so, or more, possibly, of like minded people. It's just fun, isn't it? And it's, it's kind of late afternoon, early evening, so you can do your whatever. You attend other conferences, do your work, come along for the evening, have a cup of drinks and mix and mingle.

Unknown:

It's, yeah, exactly. It'd

Alan Smith:

be amazing. Be fabulous. It's a

Carl Widger:

fabulous echo chamber with alcohol. It's, yes,

Unknown:

the favorite kind of chamber. We are

Carl Widger:

all going to tell each other how fantastic we are, how correct we are, and how we Don

Nick Lincoln:

Draper lives, everyone

Alan Smith:

else is wrong.

Carl Widger:

Yeah, all right, okay, yeah. Brilliant, well done. Everybody.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay. Brilliant stuff. Okay, let's, let's, let's move on, then with the topical tip picks, as they normally are. So we're starting off only still with you, Mr. Hart, your dulcet tones. Yeah. Back to Me, Norwegian guy.

Andy Hart:

I mean, we bang on about this sovereign wealth fund in Norway, quite a bit we so it's run by a very charismatic gentleman called Nikolai Tangen, and me and storyteller had the pleasure of going to see him this Monday, this week, at lbs, London Business School. He was doing a talk they do, I think it's called Summit Series. They have sort of business leaders coming in. He was obviously a huge, oversubscribed guest, said, I had to move to a bigger room, probably about 200 people there. Wasn't there. And he got interviewed on stage. She had a lot of very interesting insights. He runs his own podcast called in good company. Mentioned it here a few times. He was a great he's a great podcast interviewer. Not very good interviewee, was he? And he was quite sort of standoffish, angry, um, sort of body language wasn't right, yeah, the whole, I mean, it was a nice event. The interviewer, I think, you know, they were the interviewers and academic, I think, yeah, he was well researched, but, yeah, research, but you know, he wasn't like media professionals, like

Unknown:

we, you were both sitting there. So we do a much better job.

Alan Smith:

This guy needs help. But there

Unknown:

was some it was good. There

Andy Hart:

was some good insights. He's obviously a sort of wealthy guy now. And he basically mentioned a couple of things, like, Why do rich people moan so much? That's what he mentioned. People said, What did you spend your money on? He said, education. And then he said, friends, family and experiences. So, you know, a few sort of themes that we talk about. He was very pro technology. He was just saying how, as humans, we advance very, very slowly compared to technology. Like his example was the 100 meters final. Every four years, 100 meters final in the Olympics, it improves by point zero, 1% he said, in the same time, technology is improved by, you know, 100x then 1,000x or whatever it is. Anyway, the point of my topical tip bit is his fund, the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund. Profits in 2024 were whopping that. The returns 222 billion. And he also said, on the night, their aim is to own 1.5% of all global public equities. And they're split actually, as we spoke about before, is 70% global equities, 25% global bonds, and 5% other stuff, physical property alternatives, some long, short hedge fund stuff. So yeah, that was it. Renewables as well. Yeah, it was also very he just said, we just focus on the finances, like we avoid some things, I think yet they avoid tobacco. But apart from that, it's all about, you know, making money. So that was it. Did you enjoy your night? Ellen, introduce you to lbs and the Summit Series. For the first time. You're like, I could do this. I could do a degree here. You were getting really excited. Yeah, no, it was lovely. The London Business School campus just on the edge of Regents Park in central London. Yeah, it was, it was really nice. Well, set up. I didn't, I didn't realize you've obviously been attending in the past. But they have, like, these monthly things. They're free. They have, you know, interesting people. You just sort of pitch up. Obviously, we're TWICE, well, I'm three times the age of the average person in there. They're all kind of student, graduate. It's kind of postgraduate thing, isn't it? It's MBA, yeah, the average age in the room was about mid 2035 Yeah, obviously, yeah. We made ourselves known sitting at the front asking all the questions. I asked the first question, straight off the bat, he didn't really answer it. I said, who are the top three business leaders that you've interviewed and why he just completely avoided the question. I then said my second part of the question was, what the three best business models you've seen in your illustrious career? He basically just said, consumer good luxury companies have got high profit margins that people need, you know, day in, day out, anyway. So sort of along the line of Terry Smith type stuff. But yeah, great night. Yeah. It was great night. I obviously had to ask him the controversial question, but yeah, get avoided. Hold your put your fingers in your ears. Carl, I said, What do you think about Bitcoin? And again, he said, Well, we don't invest in at all. But he did say, interesting. He said, I find it, personally very interesting, but I just don't understand it. So, oh, good man, it's not just me. Christ for that look. He's like running a couple of trillion dollars. And he does, doesn't understand,

Nick Lincoln:

I think another bright man might be giving his view on Bitcoin later on, when Carl does one of his topical tippets or not. Oh, great

Andy Hart:

that. No, it was, it was a great. It was a great. Are we just

Unknown:

going to call him crypto Carl? Now is that his new name, cc?

Nick Lincoln:

Lump me in with that. You can lump me in with that as well. Nick

Andy Hart:

doesn't have, doesn't have the same sort of ring. But it was, it was funny towards the end, because we did, we did. Went up and had to speak to him at the end, and Andy was angry, saying, Do you want to come for dinner?

Unknown:

See if you didn't have something else to do? You know, it's like you assume, you assume everyone's asked him out for dinner, but nobody has, and he's like desperate for someone to say, look, you're at loose end, and go for a Chinese round the corner. Yeah, that's a great idea. Andy,

Andy Hart:

talk about Metis Norway. Okay. Anyway, moving on to All right. Thank Okay.

Nick Lincoln:

All right. Thank you for that. Me, next very quick one, really, we get more and more of these coming through on the various social platform. Most of them, I think, come through via LinkedIn. But this is a post put on LinkedIn last last week by a chap called Tom Brooks, who's just launched his own firm called Arboretum. And that's a Latin word meaning a botanical

Unknown:

I was gonna say, Thank God you. Thank God you pronounced that you had to, you had to research that didn't, you know he's lost

Nick Lincoln:

his firm and on LinkedIn, he said, What kind of fall, what kind of absolute masochist launched as a financial planning company one month before tax year end. This one, I'm officially launching my firm. This has been a long time coming for me, but I have to give a special thanks to Alan Smith, Nick Lincoln, Carl wiger And Andy Hart as listening to their words of wisdom gave me the kick up the backside to get this dream into fruition. And he goes on a bit longer. I just said at the time they want a lovely post of lead. It's okay. It's a bit dangerous against another another really sort of glowing review, but I said we give him a shout out on episode 66 execute order 66 episode 66 and we are doing it there. Wish you all the best and well done for making that leap. You cannot regret it. Clap. Sound well done him or taking the lead with your hands. And if you can do that and talk at the same time, there's a good point. All right, on to the next point. Voice,

Unknown:

this is all a bit testy. What's the next point? I'm just literally

Nick Lincoln:

after arriving back Gerald. Gerald Gerard. Gerard

Carl Widger:

O'Reilly is on a bit of a tour of Ireland. He is the CO CEO and CO CEO of dimensional fund advisors who manage nearly $800 billion of assets, not as much as Nikolai, but that's all right, yeah. And he spoke to, he's the same views as Nikolai about Bitcoin, by the way, but anyway, um, yeah, he was so kind to talk at an event for some of our clients in Dublin. And later in the week, I think the day after this podcast has launched, he's going to talk to some of our clients in Limerick. Amazingly, he's from Waterford, in little corner of Ireland. He's long gone from Waterford, but, uh. Yeah, we're kind of very proud of him, because the boy done good and all that kind of stuff. But he's, you know what? He's just a really, really nice guy. Clearly, you don't get to the top of an organization like that without being super slick, you know, just so eloquent, I would say, in everything that he says. So I took a little short video of him answering a question from the audience, from our clients, about Bitcoin. So I think it's three, three and a half minutes. I put it up on LinkedIn, and it's everything I wanted to say about Bitcoin, but it's well researched. It's eloquent. It's there's no bad language in it. It's just a reason, a very reasonable argument as to why, for now, for him, it shouldn't be in an in an investment portfolio. So there you go. You've got Nikolai tangent managing how many million billions, um, trillions, two trillions, trillions, and add on dimensionals, 800 billion. Clever guys, yeah,

Andy Hart:

all right. And I'm not a Bitcoin shrill, but if you want to play that game, Larry Fink, who manages 10 trillion, it says everyone should have 2% allocation to Bitcoin. Yeah,

Nick Lincoln:

yeah, yeah. Follow the money. Follow the money. Same Larry thinking five years ago, saying ESG is the best thing since sliced bread. Then the

Andy Hart:

wind turns yesterday's news to change your mind. From it, there's no money. You're

Unknown:

allowed to change your mind. You're allowed

Carl Widger:

to change your mind. I That's a fair point. That is a very fair point. Oh, I would say Nikolai Tangen and Gerard O'Reilly have both allowed it, allowed themselves to change their mind, because they're kind of going, I don't, yeah, did technology could drive this on. This could form part of a proper financial portfolio going forward, just not right now. My problem with the likes of Larry Fink are others. I won't go there again, right? But is that they, they totally and utterly dismissed it in the past, and now, because shit, this can make me a load of money, I'm going to decide that I'm actually going to go into it. And I don't think there is.

Andy Hart:

How do you know that? Maybe he's researched it. Had a whole research team come out analyze it and say, Do you know what

Carl Widger:

there is? I don't have this quote that I did. I did. I did. I read the quote in the last episode, or the previous episode for from Larry Fink, as to what he said about

Alan Smith:

about Bitcoin, what, yeah. He said it was totally

Carl Widger:

another lead. Yeah, a little bit like the President of the United States said, It's thin air. But now all of Oh, geez, we can make a shitload of money, though. Anyway, I promised myself I want to talk about

Unknown:

Bitcoin. Come

Carl Widger:

on, come on. Yeah. But anyway, have a look genuinely. I put a link in the show notes to the video. I put up my LinkedIn, so you'll have to click on my LinkedIn to watch the video. But if, if you're, if you want, if you, if, like me, you don't believe they should be in cryptocurrency, shouldn't be in investment portfolios, and you want a very logical argument as to why there's three and a half minutes of perfection for you to show your brilliant, very

Andy Hart:

good. He, he's, very, very, very impressive Gerald.

Carl Widger:

He's just a really nice guy, and he's a lot of fun. And, you know, like, I can't tell you how appreciative we are that he is

Alan Smith:

no and a big show, a big shout

Carl Widger:

out, a big shout out to Paul cat Camfield, who organized all this in dimensional so thank you guys.

Unknown:

Paul, good guy.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, moving quickly on. The next two points are around the same brand. So Ultra you lead off and story chatter. You finished with a succinct story? Sure.

Andy Hart:

Okay, so this is St James's place. St James's place come out with their four year results for 2024, a detailed. PD, PDF, 80 pages. I read it pretty much every year. Scroll through it. I'll give you some highlights now. I read the book so you don't have to, as I say to my clients. So 190,000 sorry, 190 billion is the current AUM number that they're looking after. The split with between investment bonds, pensions and other pensions is now sitting at 53% just to get a marker as a you know, a gage what your individual firms doing, their funds under management, have pretty much doubled in about six and a half years. That's obviously contributions going in markets. Being kind, there's 73% asset allocation into global equities, managing close to 200 billion. So them, as they as them as a firm on average, is looking after 73% is in global equities, which I think is also quite interesting. Uh. Their insurance revenue is quite small compared to their overall revenue. Their insurance revenue is 25 million in terms of, you know, the insurance and protection stuff that they're selling. There's a various other parts to it. Over to you Alan to mention some of your highlights, but it's definitely worth a scroll through for if you're in this space, they obviously account for about 20 25% of the financial advisor workforce. I do quite a lot of stuff with them. But anyway, over to you, Alan, go, Yeah, I did. I browsed through it. I was quite interested in one of the sets of numbers that they put out. You know, the numbers are huge, right? 100 90 billion, and on your inflows and all the rest of it, yeah. But I think you should spend a moment looking at inflow, gross inflows, 18 point 4 billion, no 20% increase from 15 point 4,000,000,020 you know, massive 18 billion money, however, outflows, 14 billion up from 10 billion previous year. So net inflows, 4 billion on the best part of 200 billion of assets. That's only about 2% growth in terms of assets. So they're still out there winning new business AUM, they're very much a new business company, for sure. That's from all our I hear all the feedback, but they are losing a lot of assets now, I don't think they're unique in that. I think that's just that's, that's point number one is just on the woods grown by 2% which is, which is much less than market, much less than a firm like us. Obviously, it's not the same, but it is, once you factor the money going out the door from whatever sources. Yes, and yeah, sorry, the money, the money going out the door, which is what you know it will be either them switching firms, or the age demographic of the clients, as in withdrawing it to spend it for lifestyle, as in drawdown. But so, so, yeah, I know you're aware of that. That's what leads me on to the second point. So you, I mean, it's not disclosed how they're losing money. It might not, it might be dissatisfied clients. It might be advisors leaving and going independent. We know there's a number of those, but I think a big part of it, because I don't think they're unique in this is lifestyle thing. It's an aging client. Bank is a cost of living crisis. It's people with a bit of money who are the traditional, you know, advisor demographic, and clients helping their kids, helping their grandkids, cost of living gone up, mortgages, etc. And I just want to just bring it on. I don't want to spend too long on this. It's probably a huge subject for another time. But I've certainly spoken to a number of other, you know, pretty sizable, IFA type firms, who are very, very aware of this. And it's predominantly, you know, no clients are leaving them, but a lot of assets are leaving a significant amount of assets to the extent that they're having to work really, really hard, to just to almost, like, stay the same. If AUM is your models, you sort of focus on then if you're losing, you know, 10, 15% of AUM every year, just because you, I mean, the whole point is, you've been telling your clients for years, it's all about lifestyle. It's all about spend and enjoy. And they are doing that, and they're also helping other members of their family. Well, it doesn't have to impact things, unless you've got a lot of new business coming in. Look at that. Even with all their numbers, the Aum increased 2% less than the market, significantly less than the market. So they've actually net net lost in terms of assets. And as I say, this is not unique to SJP, and there's a few firms talking about how they're going to manage this. We're now in a sort of, you know, a pretty challenging and choppy investment market. There's a whole thing about, you know, I'm not going to get down the route about AUM fees, but firms are losing revenue fees as a result of clients choices about withdrawing assets. It's definitely

Carl Widger:

not the case. It's definitely not the case in Ireland, but, but, but definitely would have been the case back around the financial crisis. So I think it's more cost of living than anything else. Yeah, maybe in the UK, and it's honest, the UK struggling. And maybe there's a, there's, there's, you know, a lot of the older clients are wanting to take money out and put it in the bank. And maybe because there's a there's a fear of what is to come, and that's, that's a cycle, I

Andy Hart:

think, guys Ireland exempt from just lifestyle, aging clients spending money, drawing down, giving money to kids, paid off mortgages because interest rates are high, paying off

Nick Lincoln:

buy to lets. Yes. Why? Why? Yes? I

Unknown:

think it is for an extension. Am I going

Carl Widger:

to answer the question? Or three of you asked the question, so just hold off and I'll answer the question. I think number one, we do not have high mortgage rates here because we're in the EU if you listen to what I said first time around, I think back around the financial crisis. I think Ireland would have suffered more than most, more than everybody, I would say, because we had so much debt in the tiger, the country Tiger, so. So I think financial planning firms, although there was very few, for. What we would know as financial planning firms, but I think financial advisory firms, generally speaking, majorly struggled, because people had to whip money out, and they were also afraid. So there was this fear factor, because they're listening to the news that things are terrible and they're going to be terrible for a while. So I think people took it out of investment portfolios and maybe put it into the bank. So I don't think Ireland is immune to people getting older, but I think maybe that it's, it's an it's a kind of, maybe it's a barometer of how an economy is going. And I'm not saying that Ireland is immune to this and will be immune to it. We're in a really sweet spot right now. I'm not in Egypt. This is going to, you know, this is a cycle we will in time, there will be a struggle. So I don't know. Certainly nobody I'm talking to is losing lots and lots of assets. And maybe I'm just talking to a particular subset of people who are doing really well. I doubt it. Though,

Nick Lincoln:

cool Nick, I think this the conditions we're going through. Addressing the meat and potatoes coming up later in Episode 66 but obviously, things are a bit choppy. And we know, we know of big firms that are just about making a profit. Now, somehow, I don't know how, in the back of, you know, 15 years of just an amazing bull market, you know, more or less. So it's gonna be interesting if these choppy conditions continue from protected period of time. And on the fees thing, I still okay, it's self serving to a degree, but I do think it makes sense to have a model where your fees, as a percentage, if you're doing percentage model, are tiered, so at least you you've got some installation if clients are spending down, you know, and that's I It doesn't bother me when clients spend down at all, because a it's the right thing to do is to get clients to spend money. And I've got, still got a significant amount of a UN that's going to be fine for me. But if they are, from a purely financial point of view, as they drain down my percentage, my fear is a percentage goes up. Now, of course, doesn't make up the difference, but it does just help. You know, it's fair going in and fair going out. But it's never, never crossed my mind as a problem that people want to spend it's crossed my mind when people say, I don't want to work with you anymore. But that never happens, because if I sense the conversations going that way, I put the phone down,

Unknown:

we can definitely unpack it in a bit more detail at a later point. Yeah, good point.

Andy Hart:

It's an interesting and I think you're right, there's particularly the bigger firms. Did we talk about this before? But I remember seeing something only a few months ago, and it talks about profitability, and per in the UK, per number of advisors, and the most profitable firms were, well, first of all, the sole trader firms, they had very little overhead. There was a decent sweet spot at the kind of mid tier, but anyone with like 25 advisors Plus, they were making little or no profit, and that is on a on the current model. So you get that double whammy of people taking money out for lifestyle costs, plus a depressed market for a period of time, they're gonna be running at significant losses, no question about it. And so we'll see the next few months are gonna be quite interesting on that whole dynamic. But

Nick Lincoln:

okay, let's, let's keep it punching. Keep the pace going at 28 minutes in. Who's Nick ah, crikey, okay, Ultra.

Unknown:

This is another, another annual letter, another one of my people that I followed the

Nick Lincoln:

SGP results, like chapter one. Then read the first three hours of the Berkshire Hathaway letter. Then back to chapter two of the SGP results. What did you mix?

Andy Hart:

Uncanny, yeah, fantastic. So this is Warren Buffett does a letter every year to the Berkshire Hathaway just about he's sort of writing the letters in this probably my last letter, but it's probably going to that for many, many years, Greg Abel is going to take over. Who's the going to be the new CEO of Berkshire? Hathaway, yeah. So it came out on the 22nd of February. It's only 15 pages. It's pure wisdom. He is a wordsmith, and he's someone that you should be interested in. What he says if you're into finances and business, but that's up to you. He mentions about paying the biggest corporation tax payment in history, and he's delighted to pay it. America has given him everything. He's had huge tailwinds with American business, and he wants to write bigger and bigger checks as time goes on. So yeah, it's definitely worth checking out. He also mentions quite a lot about the insurance business and about float and various other things. So he's basically paid an enormous corporation tax bill because he sold a huge chunk of Apple stock. I think he owned about 100 billion, under 50 billion of Apple stock at one point, sold a big chunk of it and paid a shadow amount of tax. Has he got that decision right? Who knows, but yeah, link in the show notes. Uh, definitely worth taking a read through. He's looking quite good right now, isn't he? I think he sold Apple stock almost at the peak. Yeah. Time will tell. Time will tell. Huge cash pile this too shall pass on with Sir. To you, Nicholas, Okey,

Nick Lincoln:

dokey, just a very quick one. This is, it's like kicking a cripple, really, but we've got to talk about it, the whole Aberdeen rebrand disaster. I mean, there are there are levels, and there are levels of these kind of things. We knew when it happened, what four years ago, that it was, this was just nuts. And of course, Aberdeen are now going to be back to calling themselves. They've just put the ease back in, back in, they put the ease back into financial services. Ecstasy, once again, flows through Edinburgh, what a just, what a quarter. You drop a few E's when you drop a few E's, yeah, yeah. Loom six, it's a link in the show notes to the to an article. This the chief exec, Mr. Jason wins, this was asked. Windsor was how much money was spent on this rebrand back to abd with the vowels, nothing. And he said, straight, you know, straight faced. Apparently, we've not spent any money on it at all. We've done it all internally. You put the vowels back into your Well done. Well done. This is the same firm whose finance officer a couple of years ago said it was corporate bullying, the way people were taking the piss out of the Aberdeen name. And if it was a person, it wouldn't be acceptable. But because we're a company, it is, yes, it is. You're completely nobbers, right? Moving on. Never

Andy Hart:

recovered from me leaving and taking my wheelbarrow. You're not getting a drop. You're

Nick Lincoln:

saving that to a live show. You're not getting it. You're not getting it. We're not going to show horn that in okay. Next thing on this show horn. Thank you. The next thing on this is, oh Carlos prsa, this time some prostate test.

Unknown:

Oh the good old PRs for

Carl Widger:

the Irish, for the Irish listeners, the boys are slagging me all the time. For the Irish listener, talking about prsas all the time. I want to put this one in because Roy London, up until a couple years ago, only were protection providers in Ireland, and they went into the investment and pension market and early doors on trap. I gave him a bit of a slagging off, because I said, here's a new entrant to the market with a lot of history behind them, and they had an opportunity to do things right and not have all these massive High Commission models on the fees. Yeah, I remember it, yeah. Well, they brought out peers, a new PSA, which is the way our pension markets is going. Have I mentioned that before? Yeah, they're bloody brilliant. They're really good, they're really low cost. They've indexed fund options work absolutely outstanding, and the service levels have been brilliant. Can they keep that going when people start flooding prsa business to them? Let's hope that they can. But look credit where credit is due. Well done. Royal London. Great

Andy Hart:

advertisement, unless

Nick Lincoln:

you think your fingers not up. Thank you. Fingers not up. Thank you, right? Yeah. I mean, in this country, and then it's ultra, by the way, in this country, rural London, I've got a very good reputation, I think, as one of non platform, traditional life assurance, pension providers. So it's good to know that they're doing, yeah, they're doing well in your neck of the woods, Ultra. And then you Alan, yeah, good point. Nick, I could be wrong

Andy Hart:

on the numbers, but I think they're looking after close to 180 billion and growing aggressively. Carl, out of interest, what specifically is been their innovation that you're thinking is pretty cool. Anything to note? So

Carl Widger:

I would say fees, right? Um, so everyone was telling us that, uh, prsas, all the providers, are going, oh, there's a lot of regulation behind this, or the fees have to be, you know, high. And sorry about that, but it just is what it is. And then they come in and went, No, we can do it at very low, at kind of 2022, basis points. And then add on your your a very low cost index fund. There you go, and add in your trail fees on top, as opposed to people going, Oh no, there's great deer. Sorry about that. So So competition is

Unknown:

great. So have they got proprietary tech? The Tech's good as well as the fees are low, no. And

Carl Widger:

look, it is going away a little bit from doing your business on a platform. But at the same time, if the if doing prsa business on a platform is too expensive, well, then you're going to have to talk to your clients about perhaps looking elsewhere. So watch that. Watch this space. I think the other providers will react if they don't, they should, and they will eventually, but maybe it might be too late.

Nick Lincoln:

Oh, storyteller.

Andy Hart:

I was just a facetious, facetious, facetious comment. I would just it was a great product placement advertisement we look forward to the check from Royal London, Ireland in terms of prsa corner.

Unknown:

This podcast for a second, I Prozac.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, let's come on with 34 minutes. Let's crack on through this. Thank you for that car. Me, yeah, I just read this piece blog the fire movement, the financial independence. Retire early. This is a blog called Fire versus London. This is a. Guy who lives in London, obviously the most expensive part of the UK, and he's managed to do this fire thing, and he puts out a blog, and his blog was on the death of, in his view, buy to land like the all the fire people that I've experienced, extremely numerate. Knows, knows the numbers inside now, looks at this from every angle he possibly can, and he's just recently given up a buy to let flat his health for years and years and years. I just cannot make this work anymore. So just really interesting. It's a nice flat in central London, and he's walking away from it, and it's just too much hassle, too much tax and everything else. So I think just interesting to see that the really switch on people, as well as just maybe not being pejorative, but just Mr. And Mrs. Amateur landlord, who are exiting en masse. But the really, the really numerate guys and girls are looking at this and saying, No, this is not for me anymore, getting out. So, yeah,

Unknown:

you said that runs. It is a good article. Lots of, you know, accurate data in it. And I think this just, it just represents, it's just the shifting. Things evolve. Things change. The, you know, the tax laws changed the kind of the whole setup. It was attractive 10 years ago. It's become less and less, and someone like him was just saying, it just doesn't work. Andy,

Andy Hart:

I'd say it was attractive way longer ago than that, like 2030, years ago, and we've exited the golden age of, yeah, the buy to let property investment. So years ago, Mr. And Mrs. Running a company, paid minimum amount of tax, threw out some money, had enough deposit to buy one semi detached house, so the rent was great, etc. So we have over corrected. It used to be just too easy to make money in property. You just needed to buy one. And now we've overcorrected and made made it insanely high hassle, insanely high legislation and insanely high taxes, not that anyone knows the answer to this. But where will there be a movement back to it becoming more viable? Is it just, we just have to see how time pans out. Okay, okay. Will they release the tax back? Will they make it more attractive? Will they reduce stamp duty? Okay, it's just an interesting because we have to watch this space. We're in this space. We deal with the space with clients. Yes, the underlying issues about housing, isn't it. We do have a shortage of housing in the UK, and so whether the demographics are changing, they're evolving. Don't want to go down that political route too much. People always need a roof over the head, yeah, but then, but, but it's been, it's been attacked by successive governments from a tax viewpoint. So you net after all tax. I think it would have to swing back the other way. But you're right. Who knows when? Yes, do Yeah, you swing everything. Okay, cool,

Nick Lincoln:

cool. Okay, hopefully I'm not missing anybody else. I look at the next thing on here. Story teller, VCT

Andy Hart:

look. This is a quick one. This was an article which was in the Financial Times last weekend or so, the weekend before, very I just thought, very interesting. I like reading these things which are quoting facts and data. We talk it talks about, I think the story is, venture capital trusts, VCTs, which are just past their 30th anniversary. They've been in play for, you know, three decades now. So it's an opportunity to look back at how people have done if they've had invested in them. For those who don't know, it's a significant tax break on this type of investment, but you're investing in, you know, venture companies, small companies, startups, that sort of thing. So certainly high risk, high volatility, albeit coming with a very helpful tax break. I think I'm right in saying that the UK advisors on this podcast, as other than me, ultra lick, aren't fans of this, never really got behind it. I mean, a lot of advisors I know we speak to, we're in a meeting this morning, Andy, a lot of them love, you know, people do like, really, like, a lot of advisors do really like this as a product. But interesting just quoting the actual data. And obviously you can cherry pick time a little bit, but the Financial Times quotes that in the top total, average share price, total return of BCTs of the last five years is 7.7% total. And over the past three years, investors have experienced a 16.1% loss if you put your money into a simple FTSE Index Fund. And FTSE hasn't exactly been, you know, the sort of runaway performer the last five years not been too bad you'd have done 36% or 43% including dividends and 19.4 of the last three years, versus a 16% loss. Point being it's, this is the classic tax tail investment dog. All the rest of it. There are, what is it? 30% income tax relief, very attractive. You know, tax free dividends, get your money out, tax free, etc. But just be careful. The underlying investment, the returns historically have been, according to this report, very, very lackluster. Had you just put your money into the normal public markets with no tax break, you'd have been far better off. That's it. Any thoughts on that? No, broadly agree. No, you've nailed it

Nick Lincoln:

broadly. VCT is the other sort of plain Vinland of this, aren't they? You've got things like EIS is and all these other things which ratchet it up another level. It does. It gives me the screening AB jabs to a degree. Okay, it's it's more next. This is interesting. Well, maybe you don't find it interesting. I find it vaguely interesting. On the IFA forum, tiny.cc/ifa forum, there's a little thing going on about so annuity rates. Apparently you can go on as an IFA, if you go onto these, like a sure web or whatever it's called, that I pipeline and get you just do an open market annuity quote for a client, it brings back all the providers, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. But you can go to these firms, including Hargreaves, Lansdown, by another one called retirement line, where they look to getting preferential rates from the annuity providers. And even if you rebate all your commission, because it's still commission effectively, although they call it a fee now, fee, but Well, yeah, it's, it's whatever. If you rebate your fee slash commission, you cannot match the rates offered by these brokerage brokerage companies, which often no advice. And that's throwbacks. There's an old RDR quote that if you're just, if you're offering broker, you're broking products for clients who say, I want this client Commission can still be it's just old school kind of stuff. And you're getting these dual pricing things, which used to be all the raised 1520, years ago. And it's always, always a pain in the ass, and it's just an example that. And then, you know, the sort of Don Corleone thing I try, the more I try and leave this thing, the more I'm sucked into it, just when you think this kind of thing has gone away. I mean, I haven't done an interview for a long time. I do have to be more cognizant of annuity rates now, because they're not quite as shit as they have been for 20 years. So apparently, look at them. So I do look at them, but I still don't write them, but if I did, imagine doing all the research, you know, through the advise channel, and the client says, Well, I've been to retirement nine, and the differences that the same providers are offering on these brokering platforms are significantly better than what you can get on a nil fee basis through the sort of the assure web annuity comparison things, it's just like, Oh, God, that's kind of pricing,

Andy Hart:

isn't it? They must be doing just tons and

Nick Lincoln:

tons, yeah, tons of non advised bees.

Andy Hart:

Yes, yeah, I agree with our preferential rates for for as long as I can remember. And you're right, Nick a substantial difference. You'd feel pretty bad doing an annuity. Let's say keep it simple for a client, 10 grand a year, and they can get 13,000 pounds a year elsewhere that compound that over many, many years. It's enormous. So I think some advisors are charging a fee to provide the advice and then saying, well, actually, you're better off just filling out the paperwork there rather than here. Yeah, a friend of the show, Justin King, is something else to consider in this hyper complex base that we work in. Indeed,

Nick Lincoln:

how does the annuity market work at your own car do you say one pricing model across the

Carl Widger:

board? I have no idea. Carl, wake up interested. If we've done an annuity in the last five years, honestly.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay, fair enough. That's fair comment. Not dissimilar to my to my experience. Okay, there we go anyway. Just a throwback to the good old days. All right? Another watch household wealth in your neck of the woods, yeah,

Carl Widger:

this central bank report, which I think every financial planner, advisor, wealth manager, should read. We've never had it so good. It's unreal. The really encouraging thing out of this is that whilst the household wealth is skyrocketing, and we have had it never so good, the debt to asset ratio is declining, declining because the but not as a result of assets increasing. It's because the I'm making a bag to this right? Let me start again. Basically, back in the financial crisis, we had an absolute wealth and a shit ton of debt, and then when the wealth all dropped, it was like, Oh, we have a big problem here. Right now, the money is all going into deposit based instruments, so it's not going into growth instruments, as we would know them. And yet, we're finding that the the the debt to asset ratio is falling, which is really, really good, because it puts us when this cycle does turn, and it will turn, and we all know that it puts us in a really good position that we won't be we have, as a nation, learned from the sins of the past. The other big thing that came out of this for me, and you always make the point that we are in a premium type of market, right? The top 10% hold 49% of the wealth in Ireland, I guess that's probably the same worldwide. That's the market we operate in. So for us, you know, we've never. Had it better. So there's so many people who need so much advice, so much good advice, and so many people are leaving money behind, not creating wealth for themselves by just sticking money on deposit. Yeah, so, and then also they'll also see that I was deeply uncomfortable with the content of some of today's podcast, owing to the Irish versus UK cultural differences,

Andy Hart:

get rugby this week. Why is that? What's that you're always taught rugby?

Unknown:

Oh yeah, we forgot about the rugby. Are you stunning for the Grand Slam? Carl, no, what position are you in the table? What position are you guys in the table? He goes, France and it goes, we'll see England. Not sure how it goes, but yeah, we have to play

Andy Hart:

Italy anyway. The tragedy is is, I mean, Scotland have had a good they've played well. We've been unlucky, but, and

Unknown:

we've, this is Scotland, every single year, we are so five

Nick Lincoln:

more minutes, you'd have lost to Wales,

Andy Hart:

don't you? Just you. There's

Unknown:

a chance Scotland could be France. There's

Andy Hart:

a chance that Scotland beat France, but in Paris, if that happens, there's a good chance that England would then win the whole

Unknown:

thing. Yeah, come on Scotland. Come on

Nick Lincoln:

Scott. There's no chance. There's no chance they're gonna get pummeled.

Carl Widger:

No, who are England? Then Wales, then yeah, yeah.

Andy Hart:

In Wales, in Wales, and

Nick Lincoln:

you've got a beating, France, my friend, well,

Andy Hart:

see,

Nick Lincoln:

okay, right? Anyway, so last two topical tip bits, and, yeah, let's just point a point of record. Really topical tip bit, putting a timestamp on this sad story, ongoing story, a few years ago, if a Kerry Nelson was charged with fraud, of embezzling client funds, previously, one of these more high profile ifas in the Portsmouth area in the southeast, on the coast in this country, you know, but very prominent, personal, you know, one of these people that won business lady of the year, blah blah blah and this, blah blah blah that, blah blah blah blah blah. And then this is going on. Had a court appearance recently and pled not guilty, which is an interesting line to take, because prima faci, it doesn't look like she's not guilty at all. So that's got ramifications for her, and I hope she's getting all the best legal advice she can get. But just an update on that, and, wow, the only thing happened in this world is your reputation. Really much that's gone Alan, as you know,

Unknown:

Pot, kettle, Jesus Christ. Look in the mirror. Yeah.

Alan Smith:

Imagine Lincoln see that.

Nick Lincoln:

Just sort of right now, just trying to no

Unknown:

reputation to lose, trying to have a little fun.

Andy Hart:

Look to be, to be fair, these things don't happen very often. You know, something like this, he's, you know, that she, this wasn't some weird like Cayman Island hedge fund or some weird shit that you hear from time. So she's, like, proper, you know, IFA, I don't think I've ever met her, but I certainly saw her. Yeah, as you say, she won a lot of awards like, that's, the other thing, you know, I have made the year, and women, I have made the year. So who the hell knows, but it's kind of like it's in our it's in our sort of area, isn't it? She's, Oh, totally, I have IFA totally, well, who knows? It's all alleged, and she's pled not guilty. So I guess there's a court date and the whole thing will unravel. But the point here is, it's so unusual, you know, and we've got a very high it's very rare. Yeah, so,

Unknown:

thank God so, so unusual. Okay,

Nick Lincoln:

let's not, let's, yeah, it's just bad all around everyone involved. And the final point, this ties into what Ultra led off with, on the topical tip bits. But yeah, storyteller,

Andy Hart:

just a quick shout out for our friend and sort of fan and supporter of the podcast, Sam Russell, Samantha Russell, who has co hosted as well in the summer in the past, and he did mention at the top, Sam will be presenting and will be sharing some of her wisdom and ideas at trap lives, another reason to come along. Sam interesting, obviously, is a specialist in marketing for you know, financial services and financial planning is American. Lives in America, but she's relocating, at least for a period of time, to the UK, and basing herself in London from the sort of spring onwards. Hence, she's got time. She's speaking at a few events. She is, as I say, trapped live. But she's also launching a series of marketing workshops where she's going to sort of really get into the weeds limited number of people, roll your sleeves up, and literally build a marketing strategy and a marketing plan for individual advice firms. So I'm going to put a link to this just to register your interest in this. Particular project that she is launching in the summer in London. So well worth checking out, because she really knows her stuff when it comes to marketing.

Nick Lincoln:

Yeah, she does. I think all three of us saw her speak at the IFP conference last year in Manchester. Yeah, and she's sorry, yeah, CIS, i She's uh, she definitely knows what she's talking about. Okay, crikey. 15 minutes in, we better draw a line on the top of tidbits and move on to what many people call the meat and potatoes of episode 66 and this is it's both evergreen and it's both prescient, that means of the moment and, um, thank you. Annual declines. We're going through a moment now where, for whatever reason, people are saying, Oh, the markets are choppy because of tariffs. Nobody knows really what drives markets. The fact we've had five years of really good returns just means maybe some froth is evaporating. Sometimes it just happens for whatever reason, but it's definitely happening. It's been a quite a, quite a, quite a strong month, if you like, volatility of the downward sort, uh, across the world, but especially in the US. And again, not perhaps the most unexpected thing in the world, but how are we reacting to it? How are we handling it? This is where we earn our call. And we're all, all four of us here in the Track Pack, proclaim ourselves to be behavioral counselors, helping clients a devise a plan. And then, more importantly, because that's the easy part, any idea can devise a plan us for do it. It's getting plan clients to stick to the plan. That's where we earn our corn. How are we doing? How do we do it? From the outset, when things are good, how do we do it when things are less good as they are? Now, already we're seeing the mainstream media do its panic bit. I think I can't remember who it was. Was it your, uh, storyteller, you put a tweet out in the last couple of days about a guy's emergency podcast because the market the s, p is Marin Somerset Webb, John step excellent man. Somerset web is really savvy, but it's just like Jesus Christ. Yeah, you know, wait, wait till we have the full. The full normally and totally expected, temporary decline of 30 to 40% which which is long overdue, then God knows what they'll be doing their podcast every minute. So we're going to address that today's meeting today says, How do you prepare clients for the annual sometimes awful, but perfectly normal, perfectly to be expected, annual declines. We haven't talked about this because we're totally disorganized. Who wants

Andy Hart:

to lead off? I'll chip in a little bit. Yeah, it is very pressing at the moment. We do run into this usually once a year, as Nick has alluded to, it's usually around minus 15% that's what it's been for the last 40 years. But every three to five years, expect at least double that. But this is our whole being as behavioral financial advisors, and once you realize you look after people and not just money. You know, it changes how you see things. You know, you can create the perfect financial plan with every single future life event mapped out, anything requiring Time, money planning the most optimal portfolio, and the first sign of a storm the client wants to blow the plan up. You know, you've failed as an advisor, in my opinion, if that happens. So it is a very important thing. I did a back to, I think Nick's going to allude to it, client communications. This is what this falls into. So I do a monthly newsletter. My latest one was entitled, two good years. What comes next? There was a big tick in the box of 2023 is in a good year. Big tick in the box of 2024 2025 you know, who knows what's around the corner. And I mean, I'm in my sort of annual planning meetings with my clients financial mots. And again, I'm saying that to them. You know, we've had two good years. You know, you don't take credit when the markets, you know, fly. And you also, in some ways, don't take credit when the market decides to have a debt to every decline, when the markets go up, and don't rip my head off when they go down. Basically, yes, you'll get the returns of the markets long term, and they've been amazing. The risk in the stock market is not being in it. So this is a constant message framing with clients. We are the last line of defense. They're going to hear just complete. You know, Bs out there. And as Nick Murray says, the human body cannot retain vitamin C. It cannot retain investing wisdom. So we have to continually bang the drum, slow, you know, loudly or quietly, depending on, you know, the client's disposition. But you want to have long term focus, calm clients, then you've got a long term focused, calm business, which means you've got a long term calm, focused life. You know, they go hand in hand. If you're constantly picking up phone calls and frantic emails from clients, you're just going to be spinning around. So, yeah, it's a huge, huge thing that we deal with all the time. And we are on the front line. We are not just financial commentators. We are not, you know, radio hosts. We look, you know, real people in the eyes, and we look after their, you know, family's life savings. So it's a very, very important thing that we got to, we got to straddle who's next. Let me call you. You seem quite resistant. I was because, because Ireland's booming, they're immune from this for the rest of us. Oh, just, just some numbers on it. The the s, p, from a high point, which is the sort of main market I look after, is minus 10% you know, I welcome these declines. As I say. They come around as often as your birthday, we say to clients, as in, once a year. And when the market declines, it's when the good advisors stand tall. So yeah, I'm, I'm all good with it. And obviously, if you're contributing every single month, you're buying a sale, so you want to hope your money goes in. You know, that's how you get the better long term return. So yeah, I've said Nick,

Nick Lincoln:

just to give storyteller 45 more minutes to prepare some sort of answer when he comes around to him, what do you actually do with clients? Sorry, is that question? Nick, yeah, what do you actually do with clients? How to Prepare clients before, during and after, annual declines. That's what's in the meat of potatoes.

Andy Hart:

Okay, we're getting onto it. We think about it. Andy, we're just we're just starting the dialog. It's what we do every single day, every single interaction, how we tee them up, how we take them on, how we have meetings, how we talk about investments, how we show them returns, how we you know, it's our being you are you're very good. And the at data points, entry, injury declines 15% mark, assist, the s, p, 10% but it's data, and no, I get that's just, you know, it's different. So a couple of points on that when, and I know that's quoted, that originally comes from the JP Morgan. JP Morgan guide to the markets. Yeah, entry year declined, I think 15 or even 16% I've seen it used to be 14.8 now it's 15. So I think intuitively, I don't remember, I don't feel like there's a, I mean, the s, p, s, you say it's gone down 10% so from a high much less than the average, and yet the world correct on fire and issuing emergency podcasts and things like that. I could only, I mean, so that is a stat. But the point is, it very rarely goes from point A to minus 15% in, like, a few weeks or a month. It sort of goes up a little bit, because up 3% was down 2% and so it did it in 2020 it went down. One is 35% in less than a month. I know there's an extreme example, yeah, going on then for you, if you can remember, yeah. But so that's as much as that is a statement of fact and data. It didn't never, it never feels like markets are going down. It's a bit, it's a bit faster at the moment, really, since the turn of, turn of the year, who's your who's your mate? The American guy who, uh, he spoke at harm, I think, by video link, Fraser Frazier, something or other. Brendan. Brendan Brendan Fraser, yeah, that's him. I like what he says, because his is all about, he's always pushing stuff out about, you know, how to communicate with clients and people aren't following him. You should follow him post on LinkedIn, quite regular. I think he's got a podcast, but he talks about, you know, the key thing is, listen. You know, if clients really are concerned all about listening to them, all about acknowledging, all about saying, I feel the same way as well. I don't know where this is going to go. As a natural throwing some bloody charts and data. Don't worry about it. Mark is always, etc, but, you know, we laugh. But I do see that a lot of people immediately go to, you know, for to their clients. I mean, it's all right amongst all of us. If you're speaking to somebody, I think the big things, it's like any any sort of human communication. Let them be heard, build empathy. Tell me more. What does it make you feel? How else is in my experience, sometimes people will talk themselves out of it, if they've had five minutes and somebody truly listening to them and asking them, how has it made you feel? What's this? Have you felt this before? Or whatever? A bit of sort of amateur psychology. And eventually, when I remember having a few conversations that, you know what, yeah, I'm not I'm not that worried about it, but they wanted to verbalize and express a feeling and an opinion, just a little specific tip, I will say, then I'll shut up this idea of communicating and what you do with clients. And you know, there's this inevitable, as much as we say, highly predictable, highly expected, not necessary. These are not necessarily from the client's viewpoint, particularly in the back of a bull run they've got used to seeing. You know, the chart going from bottom left to top right. But across a client bank, you've got different people, haven't you, and you've got different types of segments, so we do our best to, I think I see this as four corners of a square or a quadrant. Any client has been with us as a client for years. I mean, you know, years and years and years they, we've been through this before. They've been talked down off the ledge. They've got, they kind of know what we're going to say. If they get in touch with us and they, they're kind of, they're used to it. There are clients and this arbitrary, whatever you want, I'm going to say less than three years. 33 years or less, 36 months or less, they haven't really, and certainly, if it's post COVID In 2020 they haven't really seen much of a significant fall. So that's one level of, you know, area to focus on a relatively new client, as opposed to ones have been there for years. And the and the other part of that segment is those, if you've done, you know, whenever we think about them, but if you've done a risk profiling questionnaire, and they've identified. They basically said, I don't like volatility, despite what I understand, I just don't enjoy volatility. Whereas others have said, I don't really care. I don't pay attention to it. So that sweet spot is clients who have been with you for a relatively short period of time, and they've indicated that they hate volatility. Those are the ones you get on the phone. You don't send them a chart or a graph or don't worry about it, pick up the phone, just thinking about you, how, what's going on? Have you paid much attention to this? Most of the others are the clients. I just wouldn't communicate with. I wouldn't add more noise to it. I was talking about, like, a small, like a less than 10% Yeah, fair enough. Significant mark. I mean, they shouldn't, they shouldn't be with you, really, should they give it? They've been with you for six months, you know? Yeah, but they shouldn't have got on board

Nick Lincoln:

the bus that you're investing.

Carl Widger:

No, I'm with Alan all the way on this. I'm with all the way on this. I thank you. Yeah, do you want me to go? Because I, I think that's so valid. The people who've been with you for the last few years, and they're just seeing their money going up, they do maybe think that matters Ireland or capital asset management are geniuses. They might just put my money in and just goes up. This is why didn't I meet these guys before, right? So I think, like I did, the question you asked about, you know, how do you prepare clients, blah, blah, blah that you prepare clients in the minute you meet them, right? That's the answer to that question. And I suppose every time you're doing your matters, life, plan your your your client or your your cash flow, modeling, whatever you call it, right? That's your time to say a couple of things. Can't you see from the chart that you are a very, very long term investor? So we'll be kind of talking to you all the time like you're a very, very long term investor. So therefore, when these temporary market declines happen, they're not going to matter. It's so important you reinforce that message every single time you meet the client. But, but go back to Alan's point, you have to accept people are this. There's human beings here, there's emotions involved here, and it's, it's, I think dismissing people out of hand is, well, I don't think they'll stay with you very long. I think it's, it's you gotta see people where they're at. And I do find that, you know, like call to spade a spade, we've seen most of our growth in the last three years. So, so we've a ton of brand new clients to met us in and they're thinking, everything is Rosie in the garden. And now maybe they're kind of going, Holy shit, what? What's happening here? And it's just important for us to, you know, reinforce all the messages that we did. And I think there are a number of opportunities that fall out of this. I think the first one is go and let's, let's have a Let's have a meeting. Didn't we say that we could have a meeting whenever you want it. We can jump online and we can review your metta s life fan and just go back through it and give you a little bit of same process assurance, maybe especially with the newer clients. I know Nick, you hate this idea, but we would have been, and I've said this, I've gone on record saying this, that we would have been okay with some people sitting on cash and not investing everything, and that we'd wait and we'd work through it with them. Now, maybe there's a big opportunity to say, hey, now is a good time to get in. You know, let's, let's not look at gift horse in the mouth kind of thing,

Andy Hart:

if they were fearful before the petrified. Now I,

Carl Widger:

I have, I have, please, last week or 10 days, that that's not the case.

Andy Hart:

Okay? So someone held back another pulled the trigger. Great. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Carl Widger:

I would also say, you know, if you're, if you believe in Evidence Based Investing, you can feel a little bit smoked right now that all the active guys said they knew what was going to happen, and they knew what to do in times like this. They're they're all in real they're stuck right now, and they're like as ever. That's

Andy Hart:

the story. Yeah, index funds are all well and good, but markets are going up. But you wait, you wait till markets get we, we come into our own. Well, there's

Nick Lincoln:

a guy on LinkedIn, isn't there? He's quite a loquacious and, yeah, he's police. Yeah, he's,

Andy Hart:

well, he's anti what you the evidence based brigade? Yeah, he's got, he's okay, he's got Paul. He's doubling down, isn't he interesting? He is sorry. Carl, yeah.

Carl Widger:

And fair play to him, I think, reinforcing the message as well that you told them this would happen. Yeah, that's really important, because that builds trust. They'll go, oh yeah, they're not actually just bullshitting me and giving me marketing talk here. They actually did tell me, and they gave me the numbers that, look, this is the the maximum drawdown in this kind of a portfolio. So you're building trust to say, not only we this might be a very minor, temporary blip, or this might be a 2025, 30% temporary market decline. Who know? We don't know. Nobody knows. So I think it's, it's, you know, I genuinely feel like there's opportunity abounds when something like this happens. And go back to the. What I said about the central bank, it's the same. Everywhere. There's so much cash being hoarded on deposits getting crappy returns. There's your opportunity. There's a massive opportunity. And get out there and communicate with your clients, right? The last thing, the very, very last thing you can do, you should do is, you know, not communicate with your clients,

Nick Lincoln:

which, which happened massively in the 2007 nine financial crisis. And also, I think also in the in the in that Wuhan bed witting month, I think a lot of advisors just went to the went to the pillows, or whatever the phrases went to the went to the,

Carl Widger:

I don't know about that, like, I think people were so afraid that it might die back then, that they weren't really given much of a crap about their their investment portfolios, but no,

Nick Lincoln:

but I'm sure, I know all four of us were putting out content to our clients even in that month. You know, absolutely, you know, we were, but

Carl Widger:

we were also almost reveling in it. At the time, I remember having conversations and going, you know, this is where we will stand up and be counted. Yeah, definitely. This is where the guys who promised X, Y and Z, you know, they're going to run for the hills here, and we'll be able to go, No, this is okay. And, and I think that was brilliant for us, because the recovery happened so fast that it was, yes, there you go. Told you. But yeah, I think this is, this is okay. I look, I know you guys, oh, we hired a CIO, and it's, you know, we are going to be communicating a little bit more on this kind of stuff. And that's my call. I know there's people on probably all three of you think I'm wrong on that, but I just think communication is okay. And no, no, you know, I, you know, fronting up, but, but the prep work for any I know there's tons of younger advisors starting out their journey, because we get messages every single week about this, right? The prep work starts on your first meeting with your clients, you start telling them talking this language, and then, Andy, I loved what you said about you know, you'll have a calm business. You'll have calm clients. You're not gonna, not everybody is going to be calm in volatile periods, but if you can get most of them calm enough or reasonably, yeah, that's going to make your life much, much easier. And

Andy Hart:

from the off, as you say, you need to tell the unvarnished truth about the investments as as you see it and as you know it, you know history being our only guards, and no facts about the future. Who's Next we have we talked about this in the past, but if anyone hasn't read it or looked it up, look up. Nick Murray talking about doing a lifeboat drill. That's what he calls it. You do a life broke drill, but you go on a boat, a big line, or whatever, to do, like if in the event of us hitting an iceberg,

Unknown:

is this new? New Content is, no,

Andy Hart:

it's not same thing, 90 years old, but, but it nevertheless, it's quality. You don't you just like saying to Shakespeare, shakes, is Shakespeare any new No,

Carl Widger:

you can't improve on perfection. I just, I just did. I mentioned Gerard O'Reilly spoke at an event for Metis, but he actually had this event for better. He said, he said, he these words came out of his mouth. It's time in the market. It's not timing. Oh,

Unknown:

oh,

Nick Lincoln:

how's that go? How's that go? That's good.

Andy Hart:

Yeah, write that down. Nick, there's time to me got it like it'll catch up. The point is, you set your clients up saying it's not if, it's when, there will be a significant, yeah, a little bit of an uncomfortable conversation, because you don't, you don't love to know that, but just say, this will happen inevitably. Just want you to know, in the event of this, we stick to the plan, just to remind you, and we'll, we'll mention it again every time.

Carl Widger:

And if you want to know how people are going to react, say to them, you know, instead of going to and the market, you know, could drop by 25% say, you know, the million quid

Unknown:

you're giving me, if I can show them, show them in the plan, you were 750 grand. How do you feel? Can

Nick Lincoln:

I just, can I just, can I just close up on this? Because you talk to the point I was going to quickly talk about, if that's, I've not spoken to any great degree on this, yeah, so coming back to watches point there, that is an absolutely key, key thing, and this, this whole thing is, is, is about vetting who comes on board your bus and then keeping them on board the bus through the bad times. But you've got to talk to you've got to get the retaliation in early in this conversation. You've got to be having these conversations about what's going to go tits up before they go tits up and things are okay. Sorry for the language. And that lady's got kids in the car. Throw them out the car, go and go do a u turn, pick them back in the car, scrape off the Tarlac and it's that point of making it, make you making it personal to those particular prospects and or clients. So don't use market figures, because that's nothing to Mr. And Mrs. Prospect, as Carl was alluding to, you've got a client, Husband, husband and wife, couple, and they've got a million quid retirement fund, and they're trusting you with it for the next 30 to 40 years, you say, Okay, it's very likely. I can't guarantee this might happen. It might happen in more extreme form, but it's very likely over the next three to four decades, your pot of money will fall in value by at least 30% maybe two or three times. That means your million quid could be down to 600,000 pounds when you. Log on to get a valuation. How would that make you feel? Do you think I know it's a really difficult question to answer, because you're not. I want to how would you feel? So put it in terms that they understand. Don't say the markets down by 40% because what's gonna do with me? Well, it means your, it means your million quid is, is, is 600,000 pounds. And talk to them, don't you don't blind them with graphs. I mean, I use one graph. It's a graph. You know, a time graph. Straight line here, 30 years time. There's your pot of money, there's your there's the financial plan, it will be fine. The line goes up, but, but the thing is that journey is like a seesaw along the way, up and down, up and down, up and down. And in those down points, you're going to want to kill me, all right? And my job is to keep you strapped in to your investment portfolio that funds your plan. The only way you're going to get to financial success is by sitting through those down times. Okay, if you don't think you can do that, then we're not going to work together. But you're saying, this is the S, P is going up 25% one year, 14 the next. And they're going, yeah, yeah, whatever you just but you've got to try and try and get some buy in from reiterate the point in all you communicate everything you do should be about this with I mean, I do this hat tip essay every month because it just helps me organize whatever thoughts are left in this scattered brain of mine. But I, in every hat tip essay, I'm subtly, in some ways and other ways, unsubtly, alluding to this message that the markets have to go down sometimes for you to be getting the upside, there's no other way to get it. You cannot reach financial Nirvana without going through these shitty periods. If you don't want the shitty periods, stick your money in cash and I'll see you under the railroad bridge in 30 years time. Use consistent language. The declines are temporary. The advance is permanent. They're not investing in the stereo stock market. Never used the word stock market. They're investing in the great companies of the world. And that's the ongoing process during the temporary declines. What, as we've said already, you've got to be on the front foot. You cannot be waiting for the emails to start pouring in and the phone calls to start pouring in. You've got to be out there saying, Okay, have I have a company barometer. Maybe when the markets, whichever market you want to define, the S, p5, 100, the MSCI World, is down by, say, 15% you do a little video to your clients, just a video saying, just let your just let you know I'm conscious of what's going on. Everything's fine. This is totally normal. This is the average entry year decline, blah, blah, blah, just they can look in the whites of your eyes. A video and an email. Stick it out there. End of nothing to worry about when markets continue to decline to maybe 30% do another one and say, Okay, it's a little bit more hairy out there, isn't it? If you want to have a consultation with me, let's meet online. We can talk it through. We can look at your financial plan.

Unknown:

John, I

Andy Hart:

mean, I've finished.

Nick Lincoln:

Okay. I'm enjoying this, and there are three. And also, if you can in all these communications, talk a bit more slowly, lower your voice a bit more and he's a bit more humor. You've just got to radiate confidence that this too shall pass. There they are looking to you. You are the sole beacon of hope in a world that's full of Robert pestons and Beth Rigby screaming at them that this is the end of times. You are the salvation. You are the shining light on the hill. And you've got to radiate that line down to your clients. And you've got to believe it. If you don't believe it. If you don't believe it yourself, you're never going to be able to convince anybody of anything. And finally, there are three key messages during a nasty decline this too shall pass. Number one, number two, if your financial plan object and objections haven't changed, then we do not change your portfolio. Okay, the portfolio drives the plan. The plans not changed. We're not changing the portfolio. Third point, the great companies are still great companies. You're still spending money on trinkets you don't need from Apple today as you were yesterday and will live the rest of your life. They're great companies. It's just this collective thing. We use the word once the stock market, it's just having a bed wetting session where people who don't shouldn't own shares are selling them and they're giving them back to you at reduced prices. Count your lucky stars. Nothing's changed. And the final thing is, get the cash flow out. Get the cash flow and just show them. For those clients that are nervous, really struggling with it, just do the cash flow. Look, the market is down 30% and it's amazing. Actually, using the cash flow in the long term, how little difference it makes for clients. It might bring the red years, a few years earlier, 30 years hence, in their in their in a mid 80s or something, when they see, you know what? It's not that significant. It doesn't really matter. But just be empathetic. Use plain language and be a voice of reason and light, and it'll get people through. But you just got, you've got to go into these markets believing all that stuff. Okay, it's not an act you put on, and that's how you do it. And that's, I don't know why it's, I don't know really, why it's so difficult, but it seems that some people, some people, struggle with it, I guess. Well, I'm glad

Andy Hart:

someone prepared for this. Well, I made the mistake of reading what

Nick Lincoln:

was in the meat potatoes and then acting on it. I mean, I know it's a novel concert. It

Andy Hart:

was added about 10 minutes before we press record. But, yeah, Nick, Nick, your final point saying, this seems easy. You have spent 1000s of hours in this profession, and you've read a lot. You know, it's like the concert pianist going out there and doing a show and getting a stand innovation. He walks off the stage and says, I don't know what the big fuss is about. You know, they're experts in. Their field. You're an expert in your field, so I wouldn't underestimate, you know, how much time you spent to become a master looking after clients during these tough times. I've not so back to practicalities of we're in a decline now. I've not changed my client communication. You know, obviously, if clients are communicating with me anyway, I'm in the same I'm in that cycle, I'm doing a monthly newsletter. Anyway, back to Alan's point, which does make sense. If you know you have a handful of clients that will be losing sleep at night, then maybe I'll be on the front foot with them. Luckily, I don't have any of these clients that are banging the door when you know the market declines by minus 5% so so far, I've not yet changed my communications, my cadence, my rhythm, or, you know, my communication rhythm with clients during COVID. I did that was completely different. I was nasty on the front for you know, that was that that was a different space. So, so far in the decline of 2025 I've not changed anything. But as I say, every single communication I've ever had with client from day one, they've got the truth about the investment. Markets reiterated some of the numbers and obviously explained that, you know, the markets will be kind to you long term if you're disciplined and patient. Yeah, any other points, not really

Nick Lincoln:

just to close on this, I think it's a very important point, as you've kind of raised there without perhaps meaning to is that the communications must go out a meaningful inflection point. Don't start sending out communications when the markets are down 5% because that's just adding to the absolute noise. Yeah. So I'm saying, Yeah, okay, cool,

Andy Hart:

right? I've always said we our communications go out saying, ignore the noise, yeah. Don't panic. Don't panic. Don't panic, don't panic. Email, yeah, always coming in just, well, I wasn't panicking before you sent me the I mean, I use transact predominantly when I log into transact, I can see when my clients have logged in, so it's one of the things I look at at least, at least weekly. Some of them are constantly logging in anyway prior to the declines. Most of them are not, thank God, but most of them logged in for a couple of months, like this big decline that the financial world's talking about, and I ring up my client who's sitting there doing gardening. Have you seen

Unknown:

all the news? But just whatever you do, don't panic. Yeah. Okay, there. Okay, okay, okay.

Nick Lincoln:

77 minutes in, I think it's time we move on to the next segment of the show, which, of course, is a Trappist questions. And this is where we answer questions posted by you, dear guys and girls, there is the post lady at the door. She's holding bulging sack of TRAPPIST questions up to my front door. If you want to submit a question, please do. The link is in the pin tweet on X or the pindex on tweet, whatever you want to call it these days, it's also in the so called show notes. We go through them as much as we can. We can't go through them as quickly as we'd like sometimes because some of the questions are longer than others. And today, well, the envelope is extremely heavy.

Unknown:

I really rip, rip this one out. Ah, sorry for this bending.

Nick Lincoln:

There we go. Crikey. Look at some war and peace effort. This is from a lady called Beck Fiddy. Now, guys, this is you, guys, if you still got the gender open, I've color coded. I'm yellow. Alan, you can be you do the whole thing. I'm yellow. Alan, you can be blue. Carl, you can be mauve, and Andy, you can be the colored one. I can't

Unknown:

because I don't have the agenda. Oh, it did. Nor get the agenda right. Nick, you do? You do your best mate? Do you

Andy Hart:

want to do?

Unknown:

I haven't read the question. Okay, Alan,

Nick Lincoln:

Alan, I'll go down to my last word. Are we? My last two words will be 3000 holdings. Then you're taking over. Okay. Yeah. Good, okay, half and half, right. So Beck Fiddy, who's on LinkedIn, her LinkedIn profile will be in the so called show notes. She asks this novella, hi, guys. I'm a recent graduate, new to the industry, and currently working as an administrator. I've been loving listening to the podcast, and I'm enjoying gaining extra knowledge by being part of the industry, profession, the research I've done into the efficient market hypothesis and my current experience as an investor has led me to the conclusion that the rise in index fund investing has made the markets less efficient. The clear shift from active to passive, further fueled by the recent rally in indexes as a result of the AI theme, has created bubble like valuations in certain names, an efficient market would mean that overvalued holdings would be sold. But this isn't happening due to the endless liquidity flowing into passive funds. Stick with us, folks, I see a lot of fund managers are concerned about how this ends. Are there managers like dimensional that have active global equity funds which are as diversified, rather than having to have large exposure to the potentially ever valued equities, which is present in passive funds like the FTSE global all share, where the top six holdings account for over 17% in a fund that has over 3000 holdings. Oh, Nick, are you ready?

Andy Hart:

Seamless as I've only worked for seamless, seamless as I've only worked for one if a firm, I'm curious as to what approaches other firms take, does a mixed approach of both passive and active fund management exist? I feel that having the bulk of a portfolio in a low fee, global diversified fund. I've read that Alan has his whole pension in the dimensional Global Equity Fund, which looks great. That's almost true. I've tweaked it, but yeah, that's true, which makes complete sense. Thank you. However, I also think there's merit in allocating a smaller percentage to an active style for market cycle investments or specific regional investments. This way you can actively participate in out performance, as we've seen recently in Japan and India, and invest with the leading fund managers. You can also position for market cycle movements, for example, selecting the leading fund managers for rate sensitive us sectors like biotech and small caps for the inevitable rate cut cycle, here comes the question. 14 questions, okay, is this method of portfolio management common or advisors typically sticking to either a passive or an active style of investing? I'd love to hear your thoughts, and thank you for all the positive content you produce. Great question. Nick over to you. No, right? Thank you for your question. And

Nick Lincoln:

on to what many people call Can I just one? Cannot I think I might have got this maybe I've got this, maybe I've got this wrong. The Efficient Market Hypothesis doesn't mean the markets can't go crazily overpriced or overvalued. The EMH is saying it's very hard to identify mispriced securities the end, that's what it is. I mean, start your questions.

Andy Hart:

I'll just, I'll just narrow in on a point, if I sort of just unpack some of the things it's and I get, I get this honestly, as a

Unknown:

Becky, she's, she's new, obviously,

Andy Hart:

she's new to the thing. And we've all been on a journey with I've certainly been the journey when I was beginning to investigate, there's a better way of investing, there's an improved way, a more efficient way. It intuitively felt right to me. I got the I got the sense that, you know, large liquid markets like the US, like Europe, UK, hard to beat the market. There's too there's too much information. But surely it makes sense less research markets, small cap, Far East emerging markets, things like that. There must be an opportunity to capture Alpha. There's, you know, you know, all these fund managers, they got base in Hong Kong or something, and you think, Well, we were sort of on the streets. We understand this stuff. We've we can add, add value through active management. All roads lead back to data. Everyone's got an opinion, but what is the evidence and the data set, and there is just report and analysis after analysis, year after year, decade after decade, that it is very, very difficult to capture above market returns in a consistent way through using active stock selection. That's just what the evidence says. No one says it's impossible, but it's very, very difficult to do so, so we all end up with a position which, and actually, the interesting thing is, you know, that we've got this company which has been mentioned several times, called dimensional, and it's, you know, the juries, Are they active or passive? I would say they're an active manager. Our portfolios for our clients are predominantly the dimensional and Vanguard. Vanguard are really captured market returns at super low cost and dimensional offer a tweak to that and sort of active strategy by tilting towards sources of additional expected return in the form of small cap and value. So I think it's an optimized blend that we've got. It is arguably, it is a bit active passive, but it's not active in a traditional sense that we're going to go and find some individual stocks because of the market cycle, or biotech, I think, honestly, frankly, and I'll be blunt, you're wasting your time interest rate cycles biotech India. You're just trying to, you're just trying to over engineer something. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. The problem's already been solved, really, and capturing market returns in the way that we all do.

Nick Lincoln:

And BEC, imagine you do you manage to find that needle in the haystack, that active fund manager who can deliver alpha over an extended period of time with an India fund, and this he or she delivers a return above the Indian stock market, and you've got what, point 5% of your portfolio in India. So what all the agony you're trying to find that active fund manager? It's just, just, don't, yeah, just buy the buy the world. Buy the world. Stare out the window, figuratively, and come back in 30 years time.

Andy Hart:

One minor point into our question. It sounds like a very. Smart, an intellectual question. And as Adam said, everyone's at a different journey in this the road to hell in this business is splitting your AUM advice between half passive and half active, like choose your camp. You know, if there's two leaders, there's no leader. So you got to believe in, you know, what you're telling clients to do. So splitting your investment advice to half active and half passive, I think is, is a massive no no. But yeah, she's she, he's obviously on their journey, and they'll tweak it. But me turning off active management early on my career is the best thing I've ever done. And just buying the globe for as low cost as I can, and asset class investing has been a complete game changer for me, my career and my clients and alcohol folks and all the other stuff. There's enough stuff to do in this business, let alone tinkering around, trying to get a tiny bit of outperformance here, there and everywhere, because in the end, it will all just revert to the mean anyway. So Nick, just going to

Nick Lincoln:

tie a bow on this car. You happy with this? Yeah? Well, I just

Carl Widger:

language matters, right? So we're trying to take the passive investing phrase out of it and call it index investing, because passive sounds like that. You know, there's no decisions been making. Yeah, made. So I think that that that's really important. And I think as well our dimensional active, I'd say they're evidence based investors. And I think if you can tell your clients. You're an evidence based investor. You've compiled the evidence, you've done the research, and here's what your what your research has has led you to come to these conclusions. You know, I think that the conclusions you'll come to are that a Vanguard, dimensional, you know, whether it's a Monday index funds, that kind of stuff, that's where you will land. But it's Hey, I only discovered this 15 years ago, and I'm in this business 30 years. So there you go. You're finding it out way sooner than I did. But yeah,

Nick Lincoln:

absolutely. Becca, we all take our own journey to get here. I'll just reiterate it once again. I know a gazillion advisors have gone from active to passive. We all know a gazillion advisors have gone from active to passive. None of us know one advise who's gone back. Okay, let's move on to the final segment of the show, which many people call culture corner, which is hanging, which is awkward. Let's be quick on these guys.

Carl Widger:

Steve Jobs, his I don't have the agenda, but I know it was me, because I put it in first. Alan mentioned this. It was his address to the Stanford Business School. I think I had never heard it before. It's 14 minutes of inspiration. It's on YouTube. Check it out. Absolutely brilliant.

Andy Hart:

I highly recommend the Jeff Bezos one as well at Dartford again, another insane talk. Sorry. Over to you, Alan, lovely. Thank you. Yeah, the Steve Jobs one is reckoned to be the best commencement speech of all time. My culture corner is my colleague, Shereen Harb, who was into she's my chief operations officer. Coo she was interviewed on another mention for the famous man, Abraham, on his podcast, advisor, three point, Shereen. Shereen, who's an outstanding character, very lucky to have her on the team and running her operations. She's been through this journey. She's from Saudi she went to the United States, came to London. She's had an incredible personal journey and life, and she shares all that, and it's a very inspiring about 30 minutes or so. So it's a great podcast. Yeah, she's good, yeah, with Abraham and

Carl Widger:

Shereen. Shereen is outstanding. Highly recommend that she's okay.

Nick Lincoln:

Next, next, next recommendation. No, I've got a couple of

Andy Hart:

points. Be quiet. Speak quiet. Sam bankman, freed, who was spoken about quite a lot, F, F, P, what was the company? F, T, S, F, tx.com, I don't very interestingly. Okay, so he was interviewed by Tucker Carlson in the US inside prison. It's definitely worth listening to or watching on YouTube. Had his company not have been closed down, the company would currently have liabilities of 15 billion, but assets of 93 it's an insane obviously, what he did was wrong. He's gone to prison for a long time, but it's just this odd thing where he's created more wealth for the people that he's meant to have scammed. It's a unique scam. I think it's insightful. Anyway, my final point that advisor in Portsmouth is,

Nick Lincoln:

I was that close to pulling it off. Yeah,

Andy Hart:

I bought properties in my own name. That went up loads. Now you can have them back. The next one is, I've shoehorned it in. Charlie Munger has got a famous book called poor Charlie's almanac. It used to be a nightmare to get hold of. The book was like 15 kg. It came from America and cost. About 4000 pounds. Now they've made a new version of it. It's on Amazon now it's on Kindle for 90 9p and the stripe brother, or brothers, have written a forward for it, and you can buy it via stripe press, something I've learned today. Stripe press is a new thing out stripe, the digital money company coming out with this press sort of feature, anyway,

Nick Lincoln:

coherent meaning, but yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Andy Hart:

So buy on Kindle for 90 9p it's 90 9p you spend in your

Nick Lincoln:

life. I did mention that in the group WhatsApp a few weeks ago, didn't I? Yes, I did. Okay, am I on quickly? White Lotus is out the season three. I've been a bit slow on this, but the first two series are very good. And if there's nothing else to watch on TV. Watch white notice. All right, are we done? Andrew, do you want to give one more plug to some? No? Live. Yeah.

Unknown:

Trap. Live. Okay, yeah. So trap lives, people, please. I thought you just take it the piss. But anyway, let's typo this episode tickets, boys. So yes,

Andy Hart:

we are in. Let's put on a great show. Let's respect your time. We'd like to see you live in person. Grab your tickets, two free drinks with every ticket. Alcoholic. Alan, do you want to just close it? I'll make course, this is what it's like when I try and close I'm loving this

Unknown:

is just like talking over

Carl Widger:

your I love it like God for a drink with those two boys. Oh, it's relentless. They're finishing each other's sentences, like and myself and Nick 10. Honestly,

Unknown:

you you go, you go for, you go for a part with Alan. You've been there for half an hour. Your point is empty. His point is freaking full. It's like, Look, you are not talking until that point is halfway. Sorry. Stop talking into that point. It's halfway done anyway, I think he breathes through his ears. Right? Go, please. Please go to the real

Andy Hart:

advisor podcast.com and grab your tickets. We will see you live 14th of May, 6 PM, the sun will be out in the greatest city in the world. We cannot wait to see you over. Great stuff.

Nick Lincoln:

Great stuff, right? So Ultra you gotta go from pick the rug wraps up. Dear TRAPPIST, thank you for listening and surviving to the end of episode 66 another part of trap slides down the you bend of Father Time. Please do leave a review on iTunes or whatever app suits you best. Six out of five stars is mandatory. Otherwise you'll be whipped thoroughly. But until the next time, dear TRAPPIST Adios, we'll see you on

Unknown:

the other time of WoW, bye bye,

Andy Hart:

bye

Unknown:

bye, goodbye.

People on this episode

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Nick Lincoln

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Alan Smith

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Andy Hart

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Carl Widger

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