TRAP: The Real Adviser Podcast

74 - From Football to Finance with guest host Paddy Andrews

• Alan Smith; Andy Hart; Carl Widger; Nick Lincoln • Episode 74

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In this latest pile of TRAP, the Trap Pack discuss

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Unknown:

Steve, welcome to the real advisor podcast, T, R, A, P, T, please follow us and join in the conversation on Twitter at advisor podcast, where you can suggest ideas and themes you'd like the trap team to discuss. Also remember to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a six out of five star review on iTunes. Doing all this really, really helps us, which means we can do more to help you. Now, let's head over to the studio for the latest pile of trap.

Nick Lincoln:

Yes, indeed, dear trappers, welcome back to what many people are calling episode 74 of the real advisor podcast, tr, AP track. My name is officially Nick Lincoln, and joining me in a very hot and sweaty Digital Studio of doom today are two other Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Alan the storyteller, Smith and Anne the ultra heart watch della Bucha is off on his 58th holiday of the year, and so couldn't make it for the 57th time of the year, standing in his in his shoes, we have an excellent, excellent substitute, straight off the bench, as it were, and that will be relevant. We come to the meat and potatoes, we have paddy Andrews, who's director of private clients at Metis Norway heads up their Dublin office, Paddy. Welcome to trap

Paddy Andrews:

for having me, guys. Yeah, a long time. Listener, first time caller. So appreciate you giving me a late replacement. Late call. Up for Carl. No

Nick Lincoln:

problem at all. We're very, very grateful for you. You so doing, right, gentlemen, without any further ado, I think we should read out and have some more Hindu reviews read out rather by my good friend Andrew Usain Hart,

Andy Hart:

well, good news, we've got another five star review they're trickling in. This is from Peter Thiel, his review my first time listening, and this was truly a masterclass on selling an IFA firm from Rob Stevenson. Loved the insights into private equity in its role in understanding financial planning firms, informative, irreverent and genuinely useful. Back to you. Nicholas, you put a hat on Nick, in this heat, it's a good idea. I'm

Nick Lincoln:

trying to make my face look less red. It's too late. Not sure.

Unknown:

Nick, it's just the camera.

Nick Lincoln:

I think it's just the camera. Actually, I'm not that my hands. No, my hands. Anyway. This is great audio for those they're not watching on YouTube, and it's not that great video if you're watching me. I look like a beetroot, a balding beetroot. Okay, let's, um, put a topical timestamp on episode 74 how do we get here? 148 weeks, Jesus Christ. That's three

Alan Smith:

years. Did we announce last week before Episode 75

Andy Hart:

or is that? Andrew, yeah, I did that incorrectly online, because that's what it says in my feed, 75 episodes. But we'll move on getting ahead

Unknown:

of one off or

Nick Lincoln:

something. Yeah, I think when we do these, these best off things, yeah, episodes 70 Okay, so typical tidbits we're gonna lead off. Well, there's got to be Ultras on this one. The S and P is at all time highs.

Andy Hart:

Yeah, the S and P is at an all time high as we speak, it might continue its all time highs, or it might have nudged down a bit. I mean, this is a good news story which doesn't travel far and wide, really, in the investment management business, certainly from the mainstream media. But trillions have been wiped back on so we hit a low in early April. Tariff tantrums. Billions and billions of words and articles have been written about what to do, how to react, and here we are, you know, minimal months later, back to an all time high. Yeah, it's just worth mentioning these things. We are in the business of creating wealth for our clients, more wealth, more freedom, more opportunity. We want the markets to steadily advance. So that's it. Good news story, the s and p5 100, which is the sort of proxy for the global equity market of the world, is back to an all time high, and the market continues to hit all time highs as we progress. So that's it. Any comments on that? I think

Nick Lincoln:

it's all down to President Trump, and he's the greatest man that's ever lived. And there's a certain listeners who can't stand it when we

Alan Smith:

say that. That's a joke. We commented on this before, didn't we? When? When it happened? And I think market was off 10% or something. And there was this emergency podcast, my eye and Nick's, I'm not we weren't doing the emergency podcast. I think that was yes. So people were pop up, you know, well known journalists and and writers and influences online were posting emergency podcasts. They seem to have gone quiet. There was someone else as well. Can't remember his name, but it turned out he's quite an important influencer in the on the Instagrams and things like that, and maybe he's got writes lots of content. Can't remember his name, don't want to sort of particularly single him out, but he was. He had said, as a, you know, someone who significantly influences 1000s, 1000s of followers on his investment ideas, that he'd gone 100% to cash sort of shortly after, after the mark. The tragedy for me was, was after the market had fallen, if, by some miracle, he had amazing foresight and moved before this short term correction, he might have been held as a genius, but he wasn't. He moved after it, and then obviously he had that other decision, when does he move back in? Well, that's it, yeah. And it's just God is difficult, because as boring as it is, the answer is always buy and hold.

Andy Hart:

Yeah. Okay, good stuff. Just a quick question to Paddy, if I may, how prevalent Disgust is the s, p5 100 for Irish investors, Paddy, is it the main sort of Yeah, it's

Paddy Andrews:

the main proxy. But just to reiterate, you and I know you guys are sitting on LinkedIn, around that time in April, there was mass panic and just wall to wall coverage of this catastrophic event. Everything is unprecedented. The man in the street was talking about investment returns, having never spoken about it before, but it was general discourse at the time, and Trump obviously plays a part in that, because he is just so reportable every day. There is another thing coming from him, but within a couple of weeks, as things start to rebound, it is silence across the board. So it was just the the nature of of media and that type of stuff sells, that panic, that story around it, yeah, and look, we have to be honest, we were fortunate. We managed a lot of clients here, what met us and with all the will in the world. And you go through your investment philosophy at the outset, clients are very receptive, but that totally makes sense, and then something like this does happen, which is an understandable human reaction. They do question, is this different from the previous times? So we're definitely more busy in terms of communicating with our clients that it's not different. This is not unprecedented. Your wall of worry chart, which is a plans very well with clients, these things happen. Stick to your plan, and in a way, you can sound boring, or are you guys actually earning your fees for your advice and things like that, but it's when things like that happen in the markets. The media just love a bad news story, and it grabs eyeballs. That is the reality.

Nick Lincoln:

If it bleeds it leads Exactly, yeah,

Andy Hart:

my final point on this, if you had have sold at the market low, you'd have now missed out on approximate 25% farms, and that has a, you know, catastrophic impact on families finances if they react to these markets. So, yeah, my final point on that,

Nick Lincoln:

okay, okay, good stuff. So, Smithy, you haven't covered the value size premiums in that section, have you? No, no,

Alan Smith:

yeah, this is a separate thing. I just thought there's, there's no sort of breaking news or anything. But I have been reflecting on this having just said this time, it's not different, is it? Is it? Well, here's, here's my thought. This is just chucking out there for conversation. We haven't rehearsed this. Haven't talked about it. I just added it to our docket this morning to be discussed. Agenda, docket. Well, talking of dockets and agenda, I think Nick and I certainly maybe Andy to some extent, but we are fans of that trap copycat podcast called The all in podcast. All in podcast is for tech billionaires and a few assorted guests that come from time to time having a conversation a bit like this. And of course, they are kind of deep in the weeds of both politics, business, technology, all that stuff being it's been there, seen it, done it got the t shirt. And I'm always interested in their take and their views. In the last few episodes, they've talked about the, you know, the ongoing in the coming revolution, which is called AI, and the impact it's going to have. And in some respects, they're kind of almost hoping as to some degree we are with lesser reality over in this country, hoping that AI is going to save the economy, because the other fundamentals are not looking particularly great at long term. But there was all this debate, and this is part of the reason that the S and P is bounced back. The S and P, as you know, there are seven companies, aka the mag seven, which drive almost all the returns. If you look at the s, p4, 93 returns are pretty flat and have been for quite some time. The returns are driven. This is not anything particularly new, uh, returns have always or for many, many years, because been concentrated in a small group of companies. Currently, it's at a pretty extreme level. You've got these seven tech businesses, and they were then making the point that with the AI revolution, you're thinking that who are going to be the winners and losers and these existing companies, if you think about meta, if you think about Google, if you think about Tesla, these companies who have already got these global networks, they've. Millions and or billions of human beings and businesses engaged with their networking community. So if anyone's going to win more than bigger in the future, in the next 10 years, it's going to be these existing incumbents. So mag seven is only going to get bigger and bigger, bigger at the extent, at the expense of the rest of the market. Therefore, I think all of us, it'd be fair to say, have historically embraced value companies, small cap companies, those premiums that have historically been shown to exist to give you an outperformance against the broader market over the longer term. I'm throwing out a question. Is with these companies, which are large cap growth and all the wise people are saying these are only going to continue their out performance is only going to continue for the foreseeable future. AI is going to drive their success in the future. What? What's important are these premium, small cap and value going forward for the next 10 years. If

Nick Lincoln:

these people really are as wise as as they're being made out to be, then it's already in the price. Is my counter argument, right? It is, and

Alan Smith:

it will continue to be. So they'll continue to outperform.

Nick Lincoln:

No, it's already in the price, right? So markets look forward, they look back. That's right, right? So if we speak, sometimes gains on these future companies have performed so well.

Alan Smith:

I think just think I get that everything should always be in the price at any given minute. But then, if you're beginning to and anticipating future prices, future price rises, so

Nick Lincoln:

are you going to be a contrary and I think I think no. I think once but once a herd mentality. It goes around a kind of stock, or a group of stocks, and says these stocks are going to continue. Got my instinct is to say, well, they're probably wrong, because it's just, it's just too hard to call and they're just still, guess what? We don't know where we're going to be in 10 years

Alan Smith:

time. We don't, but objectively, and it is in the price. So these the s, p4, 93, which have had pretty lackluster returns. Are we going to anticipate that they are going to I mean, and that's why it's reflected in the price, because the market's future view on their returns isn't particularly good. I think it reinforces

Nick Lincoln:

this thing that we all believe to where you just buy the haystack anyway. Who cares where the returns come from? I don't care if the returns of the s p5 100 come from one company, as long as I'm in the s p5 100 and it's given me eight, nine, 10% a year, which will deliver me and my clients to financial salvation because of them, yeah, but

Alan Smith:

I've just been slightly, slightly, um, detailed then. So why didn't you just buy the s p5 100? Why buy global market cap weighted with small and value? Okay, I'll rephrase providing a drag on your return. As long as the world

Nick Lincoln:

equity fund that I invest my clients and I'm invested in continues to deliver between eight and 10 between eight and 10% a year, compounded. I'm absolutely if I don't care if that comes from North Korea, North Hertfordshire, or one stock in the s, p,

Andy Hart:

fair enough. Yeah, if you continue to buy the market, you're always going to own the beasts, whoever the beasts are at the time, there's usually

Alan Smith:

a collector, but you're going to be diluted. Your total returns

Nick Lincoln:

can be diluted by all the we're not chasing fulfillment of financial plans based on an assumed growth rate. Everything else. Companies

Andy Hart:

will fly, some will die, but we'll still, we'll always own the beast, whoever they are. Yet, at the moment, the concentration is, I don't know, about 25, 30% of the overall index, I believe, which is, I think, at a record high. Could it continue? Who knows? If it does, we'll still own them. If it doesn't, we'll own less of them, you know. So at the moment,

Alan Smith:

I think my summary position is 3% of Nvidia my I guess my summary question is, why don't you just a global index fund? Color is my drink. I

Nick Lincoln:

wonder if the drinks coming through my skin,

Unknown:

it's very fine. Let's move on, Paddy, your point?

Paddy Andrews:

Oh, yes. So I must caveat. Carl gave me the most high level message before dropping me into trap. It was like, Can you do the show next week? I'm away. And that was it. So there's no context. He sent me two articles and goes talk about these. He clearly hadn't read either of them himself, either? Exactly. Yes, he's very busy, very, very busy. So my first is an Irish tilt. It's from the business post here in Ireland. And damning headline, and the Irish economy is doing so well, and we've so much investment and employment levels have never been higher, not as many children have gone to third level education, all of these good things, but we have no infrastructure to keep up. As the headline in the business post an article by Shane Coleman, a very respected journalist over here. It's an opinion piece, and that definitely comes across his frustration. I'd imagine it's quite similar with you guys in the UK, with the public opinion and how quickly our government can keep up. There are infrastructure challenges in Ireland in terms of housing, public spending delays when it gets into the system, the civil servant system, and basically with a. Over a million more people expected into Ireland by 2020 or by 2050 so in 25 years time, we hardly have enough roads, public transport and housing to manage. Now, what are we going to do when another million people come to Ireland? So it's a real call to action for the government. On the back of a recent study by the Esri, which is the Economic and Social Research Institute here in Ireland, kind of a national pulse. They do a lot of reports on that of the State of the Nation. And we are lagging hugely behind the European counterparts in providing infrastructure for our public well, really well,

Nick Lincoln:

if you we are, we are doing worse. I would think we're definitely when there's definite malaise in this country, and at least you guys got the economic growth to sort of ward off for a period of time. But I think this without getting political here, okay, this whole thing in Western Europe, they're having this influx of people with their countries and infrastructures are infrastructure. It's not creaking in other western Indian European countries, Pat. It's certainly the social contract, I would say, is fraying at the edges, and it's an issue that's as much as I want to sound

Paddy Andrews:

the headline this, the headline on this was pretty draconian, is that we could be in a worse off position than during the financial crash despite all of our growth. So a little bit of a hyperbola there, I feel. But it does capture the sentiment that a disconnect between if we're doing so well as an economy and the recovery after the crash, you know, the regrowth in Ireland over the last decade or so. Why do we have so many social social issues in turbulence? There's a housing crisis, and Dublin young people cannot get on the property ladder. Dublin is bursting at the seams, and like our National Children's Hospital, for any of our Irish listeners, will be very familiar with this, but just to give you guys some context, they've been building it for 20 for 20 years. It's a billion over budget. Jesus. It's still not worth period completion the National Children's Hospital equipment. So things like that create this frustration, and that's this article. This post definitely captures that. But as you said, Nick It's probably pretty common for a lot of Western countries. I think

Nick Lincoln:

we're maybe only bureaucracy. You mentioned civil servants. Paddy, you know, you just, you just can't get anything done. It's very hard to get planning for anything in the UK, becoming near impossible. Elizabeth line across London, how that got I mean, that was late as well over and that's the most recent thing we've done is I can't think anything the last 20 years. You think about the Channel Tunnel. Think the last significant engineering work that got done in this country. It is, is

Andy Hart:

just diabolical. HS, two continues to roll on. Yeah, oh god. HS to what a way.

Nick Lincoln:

So let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's move on from that message there. Apologies. Now that's all right, but it's a little bit doomed in there, because there's a lot my typical tidbit is doomus and gloomist. Fnz, I know the platform market isn't as prevalent in Ireland as it is here. Paddy. Just bear with me on this one for a little bit. But Fnz, they write the underlying software for a variety of platform brands and some big ones, Aberdeen, your old chums, their storyteller, Scottish Widows, quilts and nucleus, to name just some, and that's if you just name those four. That's a massive segment of the platform market. Well, they're in real trouble. I'm going to read from this link. This in the so called show notes, it had us, I think it's a section 166 order issued to it last year, which is serious. That means they can't take on any new clients until they've sort themselves out. That's a really damning thing for the FCA to issue. And I'll quote from the articles briefly, it's an illegal battle with former employees over shared dilution, and its profit margin in 2017 was 21% but it's now down 2.3% and that's in a period of rising markets. So God forbid, if we have a significant and prolonged, temporary decline and the migration so nucleus and was bought out by James hay in 2021 that's supposed their integration was supposed to be done already, and it's way over running and Fnz have to pay nucleus every day while that situation is ongoing. Basically the whole thing is just seems to be and every platforming, replatforming that involves Fnz just seems to be a disaster. So I would be very I don't know if I was using a platform that was using the Fnz underlying software. I'd be nervous. And I think I know we go on about this, and maybe it is us being smart Alex after the event, but choosing a platform with its own proprietary software. Very good friends of the show fund. But for example, okay, they can change their software, click of a mouse, whatever. They're very responsive to their users demands, and it's not run by a third party. They own that. And the same with transact. And it does make a difference. And I would just be very, very wary of um, of you recommending a platform that had Fnz currently as the underlying software

Andy Hart:

provider. It's quite a hugely interesting point. Nick, I really thought about it that I use transact predominantly. I've got various other clients on various different platforms. But you're right. You always think about the specific company, as in Aberdeen, Aviva the nucleus. You don't really think about the underlying so you assume the underlying Tech's always going to be good, always going to be fine, always gonna be a healthy company. So you think number two. Issues you're dealing with, the issue of the tech provider and the issue of the platform, who actually owns it, if that makes sense. So you've got double counterparty risk, is what I'm saying. That's a good point. You picked up on Nick. Thanks, yeah. And three reasons, it's

Nick Lincoln:

bloody expensive to develop your own proprietary software initially. You know, yes, huge upfront costs. People just outsource it to a third party that does it. But if you actually do do it, and you build it, and you've got good coders as transact have a team in Australia, I believe, reap the benefits later on. Yeah, exactly. So any thoughts on that? I

Alan Smith:

I think to some extent, they've been victims of their own success. If you go back a few years when, I mean, I don't know how long Aberdeen stand, yeah, Aberdeen was standard life platform, and we were first, a second company on it, and that must be more than 15, 1617, years ago. I mean, years ago. I mean, long time ago, a long time ago. And Fnz was the underlying and at that time, you know, I thought was, thought it was part of the New Zealand bank or something, but it is, you know, it was a relatively small tech software company, but it absolutely just grew like crazy. And then it became kind of the de facto, the common underlying platform tech for, obviously, quite a lot of these big platforms. And I mean, who knows? Looking from the outside, I've got no insider knowledge at all. Looking for the outside, it looks like combination of they achieved great success. They then signed up too many customers, too many clients. And you realize, with some of this technologies, I understand it, it is quite cumbersome. If you're trying to re, recode, redesign for a different platform. That's not as easy. It's not quite as I mean, my sort of inside information on this is our mutual friend Dave Ferguson at now chairman, I believe, of second and how he describes it, very simplistic terms. So kind of his platform. And again, we don't use it. Don't know too much about it, but he describes it's kind of just modern, 21st Century tech, uh, architecture, that they can, you know, they can amend things, they can fix things. It will keep costs lower. There's a much more digital focus, whereas some of these other platforms, Fnz, they're not the only one. Are sort of legacy, and it's quite difficult to fix things or to improve things, because it just impacts the entire infrastructure. I'm probably talking a lot of rubbish, as usual, but clearly they are facing some serious challenges. And as you say, Nick, even if companies wanted to use them, they are currently barred from doing that, regulator, which is never a good sign. I'm just

Nick Lincoln:

reading that article again, just there's one thing I meant to say, they're losing. They're paying out 2 million quit. It's thought they're paying out 2 million pounds a month to nucleus while they this ongoing integration with James hay goes on so and we're going to come on to another sort of disruptor platforms later on, and how, just how difficult, and how they just seem to burn through cash. Okay? Paddy, by the way, if at any time you've got something to interject, just just barge in, right? Because I will friends. So who's next on the storyteller? Opportunities with agentic. Ai roll ups, good grief,

Alan Smith:

wow. I'll keep this brief. I know your attention span will be very, very short. Nickolas,

Andy Hart:

see if it breathed. I

Alan Smith:

went to a workshop seminar last week with, I think we mentioned them in the past, the guys, Piers Linney, close personal friends, Piers lini and Alok Shukla, where's the bloody hotel company called implement AI and honestly, I just found it bloody fascinating, really understanding. You know, have you heard of like AI agents in simple terms? Just think of them as a human, a human advisor, an assistant, not an advisor, a human assistant or and it's interesting how they get the literally, the kind of humanize them. Instead of calling it agent XYZ, or does this tool, they actually give it names. So you've got Lexi and max. So Max is the marketing agent, and Lexi is the operations. And it's just this weird thing where they all speak to each other, and you can just build these, this infrastructure, and you can just inform it what to do, and you've got all this. Imagine just this little army of bots all speaking to each other. And I was, they were just showing some examples of this about how you can in terms of things like marketing and sales and some of the sort of back office stuff. Because obviously this is a different conversation to the sort of things we had in the past, like Saturn, etc, which do you know, efficient meeting note recording and a bunch of other stuff. This is just, this would be more. They call it horizontal, so it would apply to any sort of business. So, I mean, for example, Nick doing your FCA return even faster than you do it

Nick Lincoln:

yourself, which can't be done, can't be impossible. No one, no one does a quicker grader. No one knows

Alan Smith:

more. No one

Andy Hart:

knows return. Nobody knows more about reg data than me.

Alan Smith:

But it's, I just thought the opportunity, this idea of of role, the opportunity to go in, you know, like Rob Stevenson and in his world and companies going in and buying a bunch of ifas and doing this roll up and put them together, you could just deploy some of these tools in it. I encourage you to check out there. I haven't put a link. Has shown us. But check out implement AI and some of the videos they're putting out now. It is quite mind blowing. What can be done. Very interesting, okay, and

Nick Lincoln:

a seamless segue into our next point. Storyteller, yeah,

Andy Hart:

this was revealed in teleflow. Innovate 2025, intelliflow are, I believe, the biggest CRM system by a country mile, really, in the in the UK, I don't know, they probably service 45 50% of the market. Again, it could be wrong with those numbers. Yes, intelliflo innovate, they have unveiled their AI powered suite to cut advisors workload by 85% when we see it, we will believe it. Hey, they've got a sort of suite of different tech products and solutions that they integrate with them, Amazon being mentioned as one of them. They've got an integration with a company called snowflake, various other sort of pieces that you can use. Snowflakes, a big company in the US, Nick Google, it, as they say, yeah. So it's this continued movement towards better technology, saving time servicing more clients. You know, these are all you know, good things that happening in the financial advisor space and intelliflow have got a captive audience. So if they can, you know, add more and more features and features for advisors, then the better Alan you use, don't you? Yeah, we do. We're all over this. I

Alan Smith:

think she think she's spot I'm not on a need to know basis. I don't know anything about it, but Shereen was speaking at that conference, so I'm sure she is all over this. What I do know is just updating on this, because this is a fast moving subject, and even if Nick Lincoln is not interested, some of our audience definitely is one of our team. I was speaking to him last week, Ashley, smart, young guy. He's built something internally. So we've also got, like, like a lot of people I've got, if you use Microsoft suite, you get access to this Microsoft AI tool called co pilot, yeah, and you can use, because obviously, what a big thing is, obviously, is data you don't want to provide, put your data on, kind of on the open web, like using open AI and what have you, but you can in a kind of, whatever it's called, like a ring fenced what's it called data lake, something like that. But it's sort of a ring fence thing. So we've got, we use SharePoint, which the Microsoft product, where we can store all our information and data. We cannot, but we can use the Saturn information, like the meeting notes, etc. But then we can create, and he has, he's just testing it now, create, like an internal sort of bot type thing. And each communication is in our it's looked at all our advisors, past communications, email styles, you know whether you write short form bullet points, etc, and can recreate them in their style. And you can just ask a question, like, I've got a client meeting coming up, meeting Mr. And Mrs. Blogs there next Tuesday. Can you just give me a few bullet points? What were the last things we talked about? What were the What questions did they ask? What's the name of their dog, what age of their daughter? Or just say, what are the important things that we should be talking about, and it just goes, you know, we've got 20 years of data and past meetings and communications and stuff, quite interesting. And I don't where all this is going to go, because we'll have, we'll certainly have a lot more time on our hands.

Unknown:

We do love Nick's healthy skepticism towards this. I've never seen as many raised eyebrows in a 62nd

Alan Smith:

segment. Oh, no, you haven't been here long enough. I

Paddy Andrews:

know it is my debut, but no, I do. I admire the curiosity of what like. Oh, we're looking at trying to increase efficiencies. How do we make our business a little bit better? How do we keep up with things like the rapid change and AI is here to stay? Obviously, we're Karen has kind of alluded to this on previous episodes. We haven't adopted much of it at Metis, but as a business, we want to continue to grow more staff and more clients, so ways, any way, to explore and see how we do that efficiently, that curiosity is very, very important, and I know you're big on that. So I agree with that of column A wouldn't it? I

Nick Lincoln:

do use AI Paddy. I've used Saturn, Saturn OS, which is a AI tool designed for UK financial services. And it's just, I find it very useful, and I find it more useful as I go along, because it summarizes meetings. So a year after the previous annual planning meeting, to open up this Word document, and it's just the bullet points of what? Oh yeah, that is right. And yeah, that's right. The sun is going to university, and the dog is called Biffa or whatever, you know, but the things are falling the cracks. And, you know, you know all the numbers, but you need to know the people, and it just brings them back into the room before the meeting, for me, in a very

Alan Smith:

useful way. That's right. And I think the other thing, the thing that isn't really looked at very much, is there's a lot of work in our business, which frankly, is dull, it's monotonous, it's repetitive, and it's just boring, you know, just preparing things and spreadsheets and stuff. But it has to get done, if we can have, you know, the tools and the machines and computers doing most of that. So assuming we're confident that it's accurate and reliable, I just think going to speak to my team, it just makes life. Makes the job a bit more enjoyable. You're doing more fun, engaging things. You're having more conversations with clients, with your colleagues. It's just it's a better place. But no, you're right. Paddy is not there's there's a, there's a there's a sort of happy medium between going absolutely gung ho and just adding shiny new objects to your business and just practical developments at your own pace. And people are moving at different paces. I

Andy Hart:

think the pace of new AI companies that are coming into this space is overwhelming. Most advisors currently are just sort of paralyzed by who do we choose? When do we insert it? Do we do it as a small sort of project within the firm, or just roll it out to everyone? Do we assign an AI champion in the firm to look at all these things then report back to management, is, there's a lot, there's a lot happening, and it is hard for advisors to, you know, implement this stuff. Agree

Nick Lincoln:

with that, I think a lot of people in a holding pattern, just waiting to see, yeah, I'm in that camp. I'm totally in that, you know, I will, I will embrace it. I'm for sure. Okay, gents, we are half an hour into this, so if we can just pick it up a little bit, please. So what's the net now? Now, now, so your watch has given you Paddy, yet another Irish theme about a good walk, spoiled golf. Oh,

Unknown:

well, yes, I actually picked this one. Sorry, yeah, he's off the hook with this look. It's the start of sober guys. I know Wimbledon is starting today. All right, I thought you guys might be in the royal box. No no invites today.

Andy Hart:

It started today. Not seen any of it. Yeah. So

Unknown:

minorities, another minority sport, golf, and I'm always I have your healthy skepticism, Nick, when the Governing Body themselves conduct a report to show how vital they are to the Irish economy. So Gulf Ireland and their friends at the RNA have done a report which shows that their game, shockingly enough, produces over 700 million euros a year for the Irish economy. So do you know what the government should do? It should give us more funding, because we are that important. But now it's just a summertime story, The Open Championship. Obviously, the last major of the year is on the island of Ireland in a few weeks time up in Port rush. I do play a bit of golf myself, not very well, but some interesting figures in this self generated report by Golf Ireland. One euro out of every 200 in Ireland that goes on golf, between memberships and all that lovely, fancy equipment.

Nick Lincoln:

You do seem to love it, because there are some lovely government we've been to Ireland a couple of times, haven't we, to Carl's neck of the woods, and there was some lovely golf. Of course, isn't around

Unknown:

around there that, oh, it is big. Here it is. It is a massive sport. It's not our number one. It's probably gala games soccer. But golf is, a huge pass overnight, pretty big in the in the UK as well, guys, I would imagine

Nick Lincoln:

it. I'm not sure you had to queue up. You had to, but yet it was like the thing to do was to join a golf club, and they had to wait forever, and the fees were enormous. I got a feeling, as people, the demographic gets older, well, I don't think it's quite as intense now. It's still a big sport,

Andy Hart:

but I believe it is in decline. Just

Alan Smith:

I was paddy this time, not Well, coming up this time last year, I was at my hometown, Royal Troon. Or Troon? Yes, the open was, was held there. Fabulous. Every seven years or so, it's a pretty quiet, one horse town. Not much happens. But every seven or eight years, the entire world descends. I mean, it's incredible. People travel from, literally from literally, from the States, a lot of America, Australia, everywhere, to go and watch the live, you know, the original and best Golf Championship the open. So I've kind of grown up around this. I used to play fair, but a golf haven't played in donkeys years. But I was reading something a little while ago, which we kind of maybe go against what the this, this report has been saying. Obviously, it is, it is important. Quite a lot of people play it. But it is a generational thing, and somewhat what Andy was referring to, it is a sport that takes a fair bit of time, doesn't it to play 18 holes tuned

Nick Lincoln:

in for these insights. This is cutting edge. That's why I

Unknown:

picked this area. It is this

Alan Smith:

area. So here's the thing. So for that demographic, which is now kind of the traditional golfer, which is more a middle aged man, often women as well, but Cycling has significantly overtaken golf as a pastime, as a sport. My God, you can't move without seeing these mammals, you know, middle aged men in lycra everywhere. And so you can go out for, you know, an early morning cycle, be back home in an hour and have the same go out with a bunch of friends and so. And so I just read an article a little while ago that said it is overtaking and so some goat golf clubs, which are popular and always popular, but those kind of mediocre ones which weren't, we would get a lot of sort of passing trade people showing up on the day. Yeah, a lot of them seem to be dying from what, from what I've seen?

Unknown:

Yes. So it's just from an Irish perspective, you're right. It is. It is a huge, hugely popular past time. Here we have the Ryder Cup, which is obviously a huge event, is in Ireland in two years time, in the hometown of medicine, Norway. In Limerick in 2027 so we'll come over for that. We drove past there. Yes, it's beautiful. It's a small town in Limerick. But as you said, sport will descent on a dare in two years. There you go, 700 million and counting to the Irish

Andy Hart:

seven, 17 million patty. I mean, what percentage of that was in the clubhouse? You know, just 19 whole like

Unknown:

a huge attraction of the sport. I have two young children under two guys, so my days of golf are numbered this way. I don't have five hours to sell to my wife to go golfing with the lads, but maybe I might show her this report and show the good I'm doing for the kids for their future. Going

Nick Lincoln:

back 20 years, that was a classic sort of net IFA networking client thing to do,

Unknown:

guys, it is still just

Nick Lincoln:

keep the pace. Keep the pace up.

Alan Smith:

Trap golf day, won't we? At one point, then we said, Let's do crazy golf, and then we just didn't do anything at all. I lost

Nick Lincoln:

about three holes for my patience, throwing the ball up the fairway.

Andy Hart:

Used to play golf a few years ago. We were both thinking, we want to get into it, but that fizzled out pretty quickly. We used to play nine holes here, there and everywhere. Anyway, moving on.

Nick Lincoln:

So I had my annual compliance audit this morning, and remotely I use the compliance department. Mark Dennison is the guy who leads that, but my consultant with the compliance department is a chap called Rob. Do it via zoom. He's actually on a river boat based on the river Trent in Nottingham. That's where he does that's where he does that's we had our meeting. He was there and I was here, and nothing with his report. Amazingly, I got through it again, and the only thing he could find this year was to say, don't call them frozen personal pensions, because the FCA doesn't like the use of the word frozen, because apparently it signifies no growth or stagnant. So I've got to call them old pensions. I mean, you know, if that's that's the worst he can find in my case, reviews and everything else. I will take that so nothing else to share on that but the compliance department. If you want a light touch compliance only service, I would, I would suggest you look at them. I'm, I'm very impressed having left simply biz a few years ago when Ken, Davey passed away Andy, I thought, This is it. This is the business,

Alan Smith:

right? When you bring you up

Nick Lincoln:

Ultra UK stock market. Pisces, okay, yeah.

Andy Hart:

I think this is quite an interesting story, actually. The more I'm reading into it, this is the general movement for all people involved in anything to do with stock markets. They're trying to just promote investing. That's that's the idea, the name of the game. We're trying to shift money from savings to investing. We're trying to shift money, rightly or wrongly, from sort of a global perspective, to investing in the UK private equity, infrastructure, all this sort of stuff. But the news is FCA rings a bell on new type of private stock market in growth boost a new type of private stock market will be launched later in 2025 so that means it might come out by about 2030, after the SCA announced the final rules for its this is what it's called Private intermittent securities and capital exchange system. Fortunately, we can shorten it to Pisces, quite like the name Pisces, but it's a new type of platform where shares in private companies can be traded, which is a bit of an oxymoron. You know, a stock market is public companies. So there's a stock market where you can trade private companies on there. And it'll be a an avenue for private companies to raise capital. Access to prices will be limited to institutional investors, high net worth individuals. So that's us out sophisticated investors. That's definitely ourselves and employees of participating companies. So yeah, I think this could be quite interesting later on in the year. For a new stock market to launch is quite unusual, quite, quite a rare event. Obviously, we got the foot to the main foots of the aim. We've spoken about them quite a bit, but yeah, this new one coming out, and don't forget to forget aqueous, aqueous, aqueous, yes, aqueous, which is another one that's kicking about, yeah, yeah. So that's that really a new stock market in UK called

Nick Lincoln:

Pisces. Okay, all right. Well, let's see how that pans out. It can't be any worse than our main stock market, that's for sure. Storyteller, large provider. Shocker, something,

Alan Smith:

yeah, this was in one of the trades last week. I just this, just shows we live in a bubble because so it is announcing with, with grand fanfare, Aegon, who obviously a major player in our game. Aegon launches campaign to challenge traditional model of financial advice. A new campaign aims to challenge the traditional transactional model has been officially launched, backed by pension provider Aegon and led by Dr Tom Mather money. Mind shift is a mission to reshape how people understand and engage with the financial lives blah, blah, blah. It offers a more human approach, one that recognizes. Is the emotional and psychological realities behind our money decisions and on it goes. So, long story short, somewhat the In summary, what proper financial planners have been doing for like, 20 years has just been discovered by one of our major providers. I mean, I suppose it's good that somebody has woken up to it. But again, maybe it shows that they asked on this podcast, the audience of this podcast. We do live in a bit of a bubble if this is, if this is breaking news and something interesting to 1000s of advisors out there, because I got to presume that Aegon doing this in response to a demand or some new research or breakthrough thinking they're a multi billion pound organization, but it's at the same time, it's kind of is crazy that they are announcing something as if it's just breaking news and

Nick Lincoln:

it's read that before the show. I'm just thinking, Yeah, but your bubble comment is absolutely right, and we're sort of in this goldfish bowl, and we assume that everyone out that everyone out there is doing this. I still think the god cars forever were the penetration level is, is, is certainly in Ireland now in Metis, I think I'm not blowing smoke up your bum, head paddy or cars, but you seem to be appreciably ahead of the curve in the Irish market.

Unknown:

Yeah. Well, medicine just over 10 years old now, so they're definitely one of the early adopters on the back of you know, as you said, there the transactional type market. But look, I think the development of financial planning in Ireland has been incredible over the last number of years. It's not just Metis. There are some brilliant advisors across the country who have adopted this. But it is funny when you do these massive, traditional banks coming in with, oh, well, we're, we're starting financial planning now. Yeah, it just shows the work that we're doing in the background. We are a little bit ahead of the curve. We would feel,

Nick Lincoln:

I've just, I just got the bottom of the article, storyteller, and then a chap called Don Browning's commented, news, really. Financial Planners have been doing this for 20 years, just without the tree hugging. The people at Aegon really are nuts, the same people who gave millions of pounds of handouts to positive solutions. So yeah, Don Browning, I think you summed up the article very well. Pseudonym

Alan Smith:

Nick Lincoln, come from your mouth. Man,

Andy Hart:

I've read the article. Alan, it's not clear what it exactly is. It says new campaign. What is just a marketing campaign and advertising? I presume. Is it a product? Is it going to selling pension?

Alan Smith:

Yeah, there'll be something, videos and downloads and stuff to give to advisors. You must ask your clients about their lives. They've asked him about their families. No breaking news.

Andy Hart:

It's insane, isn't it, the final paragraph is the successful advisors, it argued, will be those who guide clients to strike the right balance between emotional and financial needs. Good luck to them. You know, launching new things, even if we think it's a bit too late, up is good,

Unknown:

for sure, it's

Nick Lincoln:

good. Well, yes, land, we have plenty of launches in the UK, of things, plenty of launches of disruptor platforms. And in 2020 I think it was a platform called till it launched, and last week, announced that it is closing. It's can't, can't get, can't secure a new round of funding, because it's losing money hand over hand over fist and hat tip. David Hearn, who put a tweet out in 2020 when till it launched, he said, I wonder when this goes belly up. I hope the news editors will use the headline till it bang in a reference to a silly bang. Well, which is a UK bleach, till it bang. It's a very abstract. Other toilet cleaners are also available. They are also available Absolutely, but till it has gone bang. And it's just so hard, it's just so hard to make these things work. And then Yes. David Hun, good friend of the show, good guy. He pointed me to another company. This is and the question with this is, when, if you're, if you're off, if you're, if you put seed money at this, you put funding money into this, when do you pull out company called net wealth investments, who, in the year ended 31st, of mine, this is a platform that also offers some kind of advisory route as well. I've had a look online in the year to the end of 31st, of March, 2024 had turnover of two and a half million quid. That's quite nice. And up half million quid on previous year, all well and good, but it's admin costs in that year were just shy of 10 million quid. And it's now got going down to profit and loss. It's accumulated losses of 44 over 44 million pounds. Is it that much? Yeah, and it was 37 million pounds the year before. So it's losing, you know, 7 million quid a year, basically, you know, that's like, so if you were investing in their work, when do you think shit I you know, it's this, are you throwing more money off the bat? Are you anchoring and just thinking it's gonna come round? Are we gonna what's the, what's the phrase I'm looking for when you throw more money after and you don't, you don't, you don't draw, you don't. Slightly lost. There was a, there was a phrase that's gone out of my mind, but it's just really hard, really, really hard to get these things off cost, sunk cost fallacy. Thank you. Exactly. And the guys, or guy or the girl who signed off these accounts is called, see ransom. And I can, I can kind of see a ransom here. I think these are hostages to fortune over the

Alan Smith:

message, net wealth. Yeah, they Caroline ransom. I think their clients

Andy Hart:

vocal, aren't they quite vocal about being cheap intentionally, which, as in, they struggle to increase their pricing or their fee.

Alan Smith:

Which one are you talking about? Till it or net wealth. Net wealth. We spoke about net wealth local previous episode. Because I think was it the FT, or one of the big newspapers did a very kind of glowing review of her. Again, this is nothing personal, but of the business as well. And we just had a, I remember we had a discussion about it, because the numbers were looking awful. Yeah, see, often, this is a, this is often a, you know, a headline grabbing story. You know, she's ex partner at Goldman. She gets a few high profile backers. I can't remember the names of them, but you know, really, you know, well known entrepreneurs and business people who throw a few million quid at it. Because, again, in theory, it sounds great. You're being ripped off by your expensive wealth manager. We'll do all digitally for you. Well, half the cost and better. You know, you can phone us up when you need it sometime, but it's an entirely different experience. And wealthy people don't want an online, you know, portfolio management, index fund, you know, tool type thing. They want a relationship. They want, you know, they want to engage with people. Want to have proper conversations, and they say, We will provide that upon request. But it's not the same.

Nick Lincoln:

It's just handling and even those who want an online experience only will pay for it, like harcream, as Andy always says, is 45 bits. It's not inexpensive relative to other platforms. But is that just brilliant, and success works and just reduces all the barriers. A couple of clicks, and you suddenly, you know, you consolidated 58 pensions into one. It's

Alan Smith:

God forbid, in summary. And this won't be, I mean, the the irony is, or the crazy thing is that these so this sort of thing, like till it, and others, they keep being launched. I mean, it's another couple been launched in the last year. And you think, My God, and the summary of all this is, as we've talked about several times in the past, is if Vanguard can't make it work, yeah, God help you. You know, $10 trillion Forget it, global business. Forget it. Tried it in the UK, gave up. She just couldn't get traction, couldn't make it work. And this little startup thinks it's going to be Vanguard now,

Nick Lincoln:

yeah, ain't gonna happen, just for the record, vanguard of brilliant. Everything else, absolutely brilliant. Yeah, brilliant. Okay, let's close off with another Trappist. I do. I understand the perception that we are a bit doom and gloom at the minute in various episodes of trade, just because there's quite a bit of doom and gloom out there. And we got to talk about it, right? It's the elephant in the room. And so Ultra, you're going to finish us off with

Andy Hart:

a tax grab that looks it feels like we need to bring the energy up in the room. Don't we have a little jingo? Have a little song? Got anything good for

Nick Lincoln:

us? Nick, what are your pensions called over there, Paddy,

Unknown:

prsa.

Nick Lincoln:

Prsa corner. Very negative.

Unknown:

Guys, Jesus to Monday, come on Thursday,

Andy Hart:

Paddy, don't let the guard down.

Alan Smith:

Wimbledon's going great, isn't

Unknown:

it? So isn't it already out? Tim Henman, gone again,

Nick Lincoln:

all right, 1996 Okay, so yeah, it looks bad, doesn't it? Ultra

Andy Hart:

Yeah. Okay, so this is an article in the Times It's entitled, Why boomers face the biggest tax grab in history. They have generous pensions, property wealth and successful investments. Now the tax man is tax man they've used, interestingly, is coming for a share of the person spoils. The baby boomers have often been said as the luckiest or most privileged generation history. Financially, they bought houses for dirt cheap, their final salary pensions. The stock market's been roaring. One in four retired people is in the article. Are millionaires. When you add pensions and housing in the tax rates, income tax have been frozen since 2021 I think they're going to be frozen till 2030 again. More news. So the income tax now in 1995 about 32% of over 65 year olds pay tax. Now it's 65% so it's doubled in that time. We all know the big inheritance tax grab is going to they think it's going to double in five years go from about seven IHT is going to go from 7 billion to 14,000,000,005 years, according to the forecast. Obviously, incentives drive behavior. People adjust. It could be worse. It could be better. I don't know, but there's just, yeah, it's just more negative. Tax, tax, tax, tax, tax, tax, tax, and we work in this space, mass affluent, high net worth clients. I did a, did a, did a, I built a plan for a client the other day. In the current regime, their marginal rate of inheritance tax is 30. 13% so 13% as a percentage of overall net worth, with the new changes coming in, it's going to be 33% these are astronomical rises, anyway. So that's the we know the news and obviously articles are covering this, and we know the reality when we actually sit down with real clients, real humans, because we look after real families. So yeah, lots of change coming. The tax grab is just going to, you know, balloon, according to the forecast. So, yeah, bad news for UK, wealth, wealthy people. But

Nick Lincoln:

you know, conversely, selfishly, good news for us, because, you know, we'll be, yeah, I know it is every class I've just seen. A direct message from the friend of the show, David Hearn, his preferred till it headline is, it worked till it ran out of investors, until it ran out of investors. So well done. David, thank you for that. Okay, let's we're at Jesus wept. Shoot me 51 minutes. Paddy, you must be thinking, Why? Why I don't get paid enough for this?

Andy Hart:

No, he's thinking, I don't want to go home yet. Keep it going, lad. Keep it going. Permanent replacement.

Alan Smith:

I think he's doing very well. So

Nick Lincoln:

he's doing very well, and he scrubbed up very well as well. He looks intelligent with his glasses. And can't say the same about car. Like a car is

Andy Hart:

one of the only guests we've had on it's got his own Wikipedia page. So a round of

Unknown:

applause. Come on to that,

Nick Lincoln:

because we're not going to go into the meat and potatoes of for episode 74 of the real advisor podcast, Trep trap, with our guest host, Paddy Andrews, Director of private clients at Metis Norway in Dublin, Paddy, you did not most people. And I mean, I'm saying, Yeah, I think most people sort of stagger into financial services, and they kind of fall into it. They don't, you know, they probably had some money related background or what have you triggered? You didn't you? You in your in your country of Ireland, you were a prominent sportsman in one of your popular sports out there, something called garlic football. And you've now become this very successful financial advisor at Metis Norway, a completely different path. Tell us your story, Paddy and make it interesting.

Unknown:

Well, I'll try. I'll try and match the storytelling. Yes, so I, I play Gaelic football here, not Gaelic Gaelic football here in Ireland, our national sport, and for Dublin, my county for 13 years. So game, football and hurling are the two games here. Some UK listeners might be familiar with our Irish listeners definitely will be. And the big crux of this, but people outside of Ireland can't seem to understand, is that this is actually an amateur sport, and despite you'll be familiar with crow Park. Ireland would have played England, Six Nations there. Lincoln would have played at home Cup matches there. We would play a match on a on a Sunday, and 82,000 people would be there, watching, supporting and we'd have for all Ireland finals, you know, regularly, over a million people watching on television around Ireland. And 18 hours later, I will be in work Davey stock brokers or Bank of

Nick Lincoln:

Ireland. That's like rugby union 20 years ago, isn't

Paddy Andrews:

it, when they all had had, yeah, yeah, yes. So rugby couldn't have an international, obviously, which allowed the 1995 and so ga i would have played that at an elite level with with Dublin. Was very fortunate had a had a very good career with the team I was on. So we, we won six all Ireland's in a row, which has never been done in the history of Irish sport. And so I finished playing, feeling old now finished playing. This is my fifth summer being being out of having retired from that. But the big benefit of Gaelic Games and Ireland is, as opposed to maybe our soccer rugby professionals, is that we have to work, have a career alongside playing and entertaining the nation for decades. So I would have joined. I've worked in financial services for 15 years. So would have worked in a place called Davey, again, Irish listeners, and you guys might be familiar with that. Would have done all my exams there, working, studying, and then training and playing. And so when you finish, I retired at 32 and you're not starting from scratch. Whereas a lot of certainly, maybe soccer players are okay because they've enough wealth built up that they don't need to work again, whereas majority of rugby players, even very high profile ones, would probably have to start a career from scratch at age 3435 so a little bit behind the curve. I was fortunate, and I would have liked to have paid playing Gaelic football. That would be great, but you have to build a career outside of that as well. So I like say, with 15 years experience in the industry, it's just over six at Madison with our with our absent friend, Carl, and it's. Yes, it's a brilliant industry to be part of. Medicine is an exciting company to be part of, because, as you guys preach into the converted here, and I'm sure to some of our listeners, you have that connection with people. It's a massive part of any financial, financial planners role, and I would have been that would have been a big part of who enjoyed playing sport for all these years as well. So yeah, sure. And retiring from sport is very hard at an elite level, and but you get old and your body doesn't work anymore, and you become, frankly, a bit crap at the end, and, but it's a nice it's a tough situation to be in, but you guys will know, we deal with a lot of business owners as clients, and when your kind of life and soul and energy has been dedicated to one thing, having to stop that or retiring, like retirement is such a bad word, guys, people, yeah, connotations, if I retire, I'm old and gray and I'm sitting in a dark room, or that financial independence is a lot more amiable for people. So my own experience, having gone through retirement in my early 30s, it's a nice way to be able to connect with some of our clients when they step away from their businesses. And the challenges that comes, maybe not from a monetary sense, but they've built up significant assets, and they have a really strong financial plan, and their asset allocation, and all of those things are aligned. But just the psychological aspect of my identity is tied up in that I am Alan Smith Andy Hart, Nick Lincoln, the business owner. And for 30 or 40 years, everything has been poured into that. And when I stop, what next? You know, so being able to have those type of conversations with people and with some element of experience and perspective in the background is it's a big help to me in my job and our team here in Dublin as well. So I must be honest, it is not as exciting as living out your dreams playing with some of your best friends in front of 82,000 people and achieving the pinnacle of your sport

Nick Lincoln:

that was, yeah, but you've got to do that anyway. You know, most people don't even get the chance to do that through your hard work and ability, you know. So that is that already is something that puts you out there. You know, it's memories, isn't

Unknown:

it? Yeah, it was an incredibly special time, and, you know, like, I was fortunate to be part of a very successful group, and people would commonly ask me, in Ireland, we can catch up with people, and what was that like to be quite a high profile team here in Ireland. And I always say it's was unbelievable time and effort and dedication went into being there and being that successful, but he never seen it as a job, and it was just an amazing privilege to be able to do that. My friends from school would be on the stands looking down, yeah, and they would swap with me, but I would have missed my summer holidays and trips abroad and family weddings and all that stuff. But they would, you know, we were in a very privileged position. But the thing that would have made that group very special, I had sustained success was that there's about 30 guys, maybe in the squad who are players so similar to rugby. It's 15 aside. And then you have your subs and things like that. And then maybe 10 to 15 guys between your headline manager, Jim Gavin, be very famous, and then coaches, nutritionists, dieticians and things like that, and hand on heart, there's say 45 to 50 people there where total and utter selflessness, like universal every single person had your back and would do anything for you to be successful. And it was environment created, and like our manager will be a guy called Jim Gavin, not necessarily coaching. You know, he wasn't a brilliant coach, but as a manager, creating an environment where there was, he's an old army guys, very disciplined, very structured, but that I'm going to throw them to corporate and bullshit speak, that empowering the team and the players. Yeah, you guys need to take ownership of this. And everyone, guys all over Dublin, different demographics, were given the opportunity to contribute and be part of the team. And we work in businesses. We've been in different teams, whether it's professionally or sporting careers at any level, and teams that have been pretty shit, that have underperformed, that have not done. Well, we know what doesn't work, but to be in an environment where there's 45 or 50 people, where there's total and utter alignment and selflessness and just the feeling of people having your back, that's an incredibly special place to be, and it's quite rare, and that's one thing, people, how are you so successful that I always go back to that environment was an incredibly special place to be for that period of

Nick Lincoln:

time. It's an obvious question. I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you think that you're trying to bring back, or have you brought that kind of culture where you empower the team into into medicine? Or is that, is that a strong

Unknown:

it was a big part Nick green joining medicine like so. I. Came in six years ago, or, I'm not sure if Carl's got into our numbers around terms of the assets we manage and the the growth of our business. But the significant thing there's been the growth of our team. We think about joining maybe 10 staff. We have 24 staff. Our Dublin office, Dublin international headquarters, was more than one other guy. So there's now, there's now, there's now nine of us in Dublin and and our, our AUM, has grown, our brand has grown, but our team has grown significantly as well. And as you guys know, and a big part, I would have retired, and say, five years ago, the first thing I did, before I had kids and no time anymore, I did an MBA for two years at Dublin City University, DCU over here, kind of interested in how companies grow and scale and effective leadership and things like that. And ultimately, we can't grow as a business with medicine. We can't bring our proposition to families all over Ireland unless we have great people with us, as corny as that may sound, that I know the eyebrow raise of skepticism, you cannot achieve anything on your own, no matter how good you are or how incredible your proposition is. If you want to grow and we have sustained success, you bloody need good people with you. And I think, of course, I would say this, but maybe our team would be able to say it as well, and Carol would definitely say it. I think we have a really good team at medicine Dublin and Limerick to be able to do that. So it is a exciting place to be. And like, say it's not, and nothing will ever be the same as playing elite sport at that level. But it's not a bad second. I must say,

Alan Smith:

yeah, yeah, I must say that there's, there's a lot of you know, they say success is a team sport. There's a lot of parallels. I've read a number of books like that. The one I always remember is legacy about the old blacks and the culture they created. But it was, and it was and it was interesting again, because their management spent time and like American football teams and basketball teams, and I think elite. I think it went to Man City and various places, you know, where there's elite sports around the world. Just looking for clues. I was thinking also you must make the claim to be world champions.

Unknown:

No, we don't have that horrible America. Serious? Yeah. Well, maybe we are. Maybe we should start world title

Alan Smith:

champions, as opposed to, I've got a question specifically for you, Patty on that, because this is you'd have been asked this, I'm sure, many times before, but you just talked about a moment ago, this transition, you're doing one thing, and it is just consuming your entire life, and is your identity, and I've no doubt you're famous in the streets of Dublin. You get stopped and asked for selfies and all the rest of it. That's your whole thing wrapped up. And then one day you stop, and that's the last day you ever play professional sport at that level. Now you're doing something else, which, as you say, is still fun and interesting, but it's never going to replicate what you did before. And the similarity is exactly as you say, is entrepreneurs and founders who sell their business. So you're in a great position to advise those people based on your own particular you haven't, you didn't actually sell a business, but your life was completely transitioned quite quickly from one thing to the other. What would you say to those people? No doubt you've got clients going through or have gone through that situation, who are maybe struggling a bit. I've certainly known quite a few who struggled. What advice would you give to them to deal with that transition?

Unknown:

There is no way around it. It is hard. It is difficult, you know, and because you're right with all the will in the world, it is that's your passion. And we deal with like, as you say, business owners, and they have built this, in most cases, from the ground up, or it might be a generational thing and they have to step away, but it is a massive part of your life when you stop that. That is, that is difficult. There is no you need to accept that, and but a big part of the ease, or how you ease that burden and that transition, is to prepare for it as best as you can. And it should not be one day I'm doing this, and the next day I'm all of a sudden I have no purpose. I would find that would be a common phrase, which would be using my purpose and my identity stop that can be really, really difficult situation for a man or a woman or family to be in. And as I said, we're all relatively fortunate. The people who we come across are usually pretty successful. They have the monetary means to be able to do that. But the psychological challenge of you know, I don't want 30 years of having all this free time. I need to have some sort of purpose. So the sooner you plan and lead your way into that, the easier it becomes. But you do need to it is going to be difficult my approach, like I say, with sport, it's a bit easier because, you know, Time waits for no man younger players come along, you get your feedback on the pitch. You. You get a sense that I probably can't do this for much longer, and I was definitely in that case. I'm sure there might be some Irish listeners who would agree with that, on my side, but I had had a plan in terms of, I had a career, you know, relatively successful career. I had joined Metis at the time. I knew I was excited by the plans we were trying to implement. I enrolled to do an executive MBA straight away, because you're replacing it, you know, 5060, hours of your week. Yeah, yeah. If you don't have a plan, what do you fall into then? Like, probably not great habits. So having a plan, having a structure, and things that different things, new things that might excite you. They might not, but trying to keep busy and just being prepared for Alan just makes it a hell

Andy Hart:

of a lot easier. Makes sense. I've got a couple of quick follow up questions, I suppose, buddy, or take some as you want. The MBA was that full of part time? And was it worth it?

Unknown:

It was two years. It was part time in DCU. It was worth it. Yeah. Andy, it was. And one on the basis that what matters were trying to do that I was, I know formal management experience, and so learning about that, I knew we were going to try and grow and scale the business, and I would have more direct reports. So that side of things, there was a tangible benefit from there, time wise, just a personal level, I wanted to have something as opposed to playing really bad golf or going drinking loads of points, that novelty wears off quickly having played sport. And the third thing, just from an interest point of view, I had played and worked under some really successful managers, some not so successful managers, and I was personally, just, I was passionate, but interested in learning about the academics behind effective leadership. So

Andy Hart:

and you got a substantial pay rise when you completed the MBA.

Unknown:

That is, I'm not gonna lie, that is a major part of why a lot of my classmates would have enrolled. Yeah,

Andy Hart:

my my next question is, what, what was it like when the six year winning spree was over? Was there a day of mourning in Dublin shop closed? It

Unknown:

was bad. It was one of our great rivals who had beaten over a lot of those years, and mayo had beaten us in another and semi final. And I did this thing, and it was quite well that, must admit, it was quite awkward at the time. I went straight into media work when I stopped. And so we'd have my own podcast here with a couple of guys, which are very popular here in Ireland, around football pod. And we'd have big listenership. But my first year, I then had to, we'd have been very kind of tight as a group, very close. And I would have to then commentate and give my opinion and analysis were difficult some of my great friends and great coaches and I must, I thought I'd be okay, guys. I thought the one would keep going, and I just have to be really positive and it'd be easy. And sure enough, we were beating the all Ireland semi final. And building with being a pundit, you are being paid to give your opinion. You can't we all hate bland, boring pundits who don't say anything soccer. Side of things are probably a lot of Sky Sports or BT, and so that was a difficult situation to be in, yeah, I must admit. So

Alan Smith:

you weren't in the team when they know I left

Unknown:

and it all went to

Alan Smith:

shit six years on the bounce, you won't

Unknown:

correlation here. Correlation. I was gone, so I was fortunate. I might the start of my Dublin crew. We had a tough couple of very tough defeats, some bad defeats, and we put them pretty heavily criticized from within Dublin and from around the country, and rightly so, we weren't performing. But the the last years of my career was very tranquil and sanguine and enjoyable. We we won, we worked. He's

Andy Hart:

he's getting football, the one that you have to be born in the county to play for the county. It's all very

Unknown:

strict. Yeah, it is. But that's kind of the I suppose the appeal of it as well. Now you could get really into the weeds here Andy, and there's some controversy with players maybe moving between counties, or I can see that it's heavily frowned upon. Very tribal. They do actually allow a move between teams under certain circumstances. Yes. So there's a little bit of chicanery I'm not gonna get. I couldn't possibly get into the department for the most part. Yes, the county you grow up in, you play for them, the rules to your players and to your supporters, like a big weekend just gone the all iron quarter finals around in crow Park. So we've got 120,000 people from eight different care around Ireland competing. It's right at the business end of the championship. So it's a lot easier. Now, guys, I'm five years out, so when I'm commentating and giving my opinions on things, it's easier. You can

Alan Smith:

relax. I can say you're you're a lot more diplomatic than the person you're standing in for widgets. Just have a habit

Unknown:

of upsetting the NBA

Alan Smith:

guys. You know, just one, one thing that just strikes me. And again, it's like when you see success stories. So prior to the previous years Paddy, you hadn't enjoyed the same success, or the team had noted a few defeats, and then things, obviously, at some stage began to click the story. I always remember, Nick, you're a fan Saracens rugby in England. They were no other team who were pretty mediocre. They brought this new management team in, and, you know, they really transformed them.

Unknown:

And it's quite in the background, though, Alan did they might have had some perspective. Yeah,

Nick Lincoln:

they all do it. They all do

Unknown:

it next time that was

Alan Smith:

that, that's true. But no, it's just interesting. When you see teams transport, and if it's, if it's about, if it's more than money, obviously you got certain, let's certainly in soccer, there's just some new owner comes in and drops a ton of money on them. But if you see, I mean, I meant way back in the day when arsenal, when Arsen Wenger came into arsenal, there's a new style of football, was a continental style of football. It took a while to to kick in. It's just interesting. You see sports teams transform, over time, from a sort of mediocre type returns to be literally world class and beating everyone else. And it's, I just think it's always fascinating to try to unpick the ingredients. What made that happen, and if it can be in your MBA, will help this, if that can be transferred across to the business world. You know, it's fantastic,

Unknown:

just looking for these kind of allude with their but trying to do what many good people with you usually in those instances that there's there's alignment. This is full in language here, David Dean and arson Wanger, and then bringing people on a journey with you. The English players obviously changed their mentality. The French guys helped that. Yeah, Saracen, Irish rugby team would be very do anything at a World Cup, but they've had massive growth and success and just good people and connection with the people on your team and and then maybe a leadership with a little bit of charisma. Doesn't go straight or canal. There's no right or wrong, but yeah, you look across successful teams in any sport or business, there's usually those common threads that run through my

Andy Hart:

final question, buddy. Obviously, you're insanely busy at the moment with two young kids, but what was it like when you had the job and a professional sportsman? What was your training schedule like? Train

Unknown:

in the morning, six o'clock in the gym, go to work, train in the evening on the pitch. Repeat Friday for 10 months of the year the season. It's actually changed now. It used to run from kind of basically the first of January through to the all hour finals. Used to be the end of September, whereas now it's condensed, it's brought forward to July, so it was full out, and then you're going to do your exams and stuff like that as well. So, but it was just something really, really busy. But I kind of started young, you know. So I made my debut when it was 19, and I'd have played in kind of the underage here took, like the Indian 20s and the rugby, that type of things. It was a path. I knew this was something I would hopefully be able to do. So you just get used to being unbelievably busy and and people would say sacrifices. I never saw that as a sacrifice, because I got to do this amazing thing, yeah, at the weekend, in front of the country, whereas some people do, and they stop and they don't want to do anything, that's totally fine. It's a personal choice. I was passionate about doing this, and I absolutely no regrets from doing it. It was a very special time, busy, not as busy with two kids, though, guys Jesus to me that too.

Andy Hart:

They're grieving my old life back anyway,

Nick Lincoln:

that's, that's, that's brilliant. Maybe afterwards, you'll give me a link to your, your your podcast, and I'll put in the so called show notes, because you might have some new listeners who might want to. I'm just conscious of time. We're 74 minutes in just an interesting correlation between your career playing in a packed stadium at Croke Park, 82,000 people and I saw a trap, you know, paying in front of a packed audience of the Royal College of Physicians, albeit only 200 people. But I think very similar

Unknown:

quality, not quantity, guys. I'm coming next. I am coming next year, a year out year in advance, we

Nick Lincoln:

would, we would love to see you, my friend. Okay, I think we should move on to the next stage of the show, if only because I can see at the front door that postie is there. She's now ringing it. She has, of course, dragged up my drive the bulging sack of TRAPPIST questions. If you want to leave a question for the trap pack and honorary guest host paddy Andrews, click on the pinned tweet on x, the pinned X on tweet, and leave your question. We will get to it. And also in the so called show notes, the link is in there as well. We have a question this week. Let's see. Let's open up this letter. If I can find my letter opening sound, which is always escapes me, very smooth. Lincoln, here we go. Who's this from? This is from a Ah yes, Patrick. Patrick Duggan, who's on LinkedIn, and his link is in the show notes as well. Hi Trap Team. I love your podcast. Thank you. I do try to listen. Into it as often as possible, but given its length, I sometimes find myself way behind. Please forgive me if my question has been addressed in a past episode. Question being this, what do you say to a client who has another advisor, multiple advisors, and who wishes to work with you, but also wishes to retain those relationships to my mind, as long as the proverbial left hand knows what the right hand is doing, I guess it's okay. Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you. Regards, Patrick. I'll go first very briefly. I've got no problem with a client having multiple advisors in other fields, they'll need an accountant, they'll need a solicitor, if this affairs are complicated, but having multiple financial advisors absolutely bloody not, never, ever, ever. It's either Everything or Nothing. Gentlemen, I'll

Andy Hart:

follow on from Nick, because I'm very similar. You know, if there's two leaders, there's no leader. So yeah, when it comes to the looking after the investments, the financial plan, it's, it's, it's me or someone else. So I would never split an account, as Nick Murray says, an Army General never splits an army. Over to you, Patty,

Unknown:

and we would see this a bit, I would kind of, if people are coming to us for financial planning and advice, they're obviously probably not overly enamored with the advice they're already getting. So they may have policies in other places, and they're coming to us for kind of a holistic view of their financial plan, we would take clients on. We've a live case luxury from last Friday where there will be some policies and different investment houses, and we would take them on. We will be clear on kind of the value we're adding. And ultimately, we would see within a year or two that business will will all come under us anyway, but it's pretty common in Ireland that people might have an advisor, and if they're coming to us at Metis, it clearly shows they're not awfully happy with what they're getting today. So again, being diplomatic there guys,

Alan Smith:

I would agree with the stance that Nicholas and Andrew have taken, and I say that from experience, because we used to be pretty loose on it. And someone would say, I still like, I like the way this other advisor does x, but I really like you. And we learned. We literally learned, to our cost, it's a bloody disaster, because regardless of left hand not knowing the right hand is doing it, just it just doesn't work, someone's got to take leadership and ownership. And the thing is, you've grown, got mature businesses, you've got to be prepared to walk away. I think that just sort of strengthen your control. It's either us or, you know, stick, stick with your current advisor. Because either way, Mr. Mrs. Client, you can be worse off if you hire several advisors to kind of do broadly the same, the same thing, the only, only slight, slight exception is if, and it's very, very rare, if somebody comes and they've got something they own, like something a bit obscure, like an impact investment portfolio that we just don't do, don't get involved with, and it's purely portfolio management that they want to get sort of wrapped into their overall financial plan. Yeah, but we are the financial planners. We are the kind of the investment consultants. We are the coaches. We are everything. And if you want multiples of those, we're not the right firm. Yeah,

Nick Lincoln:

totally. And even if initially it starts off, but all you're going to be drawn into over time is like some performance Derby Well, and that's just a road to hell. Really. I

Alan Smith:

remember without, I won't name, name names, but we when, on this occasion, the last occasion where we did agree to accept, and I think the reason was, at the time, the client wanted a, you know what we used to be called, an ethical portfolio, and we didn't do them. So we said, I'm going to split my money between this bank who said they would do it. And, I mean, so we weren't fine. We haven't got ethic ESG portfolios. And so they did it. And I remember, so every year we get the information, and we had to just beg for the bank for the information, the kind of the trades that they'd done. And every year, without fail, they'd used up all this CGT allowances by just by fund switching. And it was just amazing. They just, they'd hold some fund literally for six weeks, then change it. I don't know what the hell they were doing, but, and each time bit of growth sold it, CGT, tax bill, you know, tax bill. And they don't, they don't care about that was that was just the last straw for us. We thought, no, had you just, you know, just work with us. You'd be far better off, and you could have gone on, bought a green ethical fund on the side, if you wanted to. I

Andy Hart:

get your point Patty about transitioning clients slowly, that might have various things here, there and everywhere. Transitioning

Nick Lincoln:

is one thing, yeah,

Andy Hart:

the ongoing but if a client comes to you and says, Look, Patty, here's the remit, mate, I'm giving you 50% of the money, and 50% of the money is across the road, let's go. I

Unknown:

agree with you guys that it's not, it's not a long standing relationship there. It's not a healthy environment. You said it Nick It's Well, these guys said this, and you guys are saying different, yeah, fees inevitably come into it as well. These guys are doing this, and you guys are

Andy Hart:

doing that. Each Other offer each other. Don't worry what it is. You know, they're better than this, therefore you got to change this. Therefore you got, yeah.

Unknown:

Do you value what we're doing? Do you value the how we go through? Here's your financial plan, and usually. Yeah, no. In fact, in all cases, when it's in that instance, they haven't got a financial plan, they had our product somewhere else.

Andy Hart:

And that's where you ask, do you currently have a financial plan? The answer is always no. Sometimes it's sort of myself. That's an interesting point

Nick Lincoln:

that ties back to the topical tidbit that that Egon story about, oh, we've got this new way of doing it, because so many advisors don't do financial planning, that if you take, if you have a prospect, and you're doing the financial planning, you're using buoyance or fit for purpose cash flow, most people won't have seen it, and that, if that doesn't convince them to come with you alone, then they're going to be a pain in the very powerful tool. Yeah, yeah, right. Okay, so we are at 80 minutes. Patty. You gotta do a podcast, another recording after this, this evening, you gotta go back to your two children

Unknown:

who'd never seen never said all day, guys, oh my God,

Nick Lincoln:

living the dream, my friend, living the dream. Let's move on to what many people call culture corner. As

Andy Hart:

an experienced podcast host, buddy, you impressed by the production levels of trackers. I

Unknown:

said it for Nick before, before you guys came on, highly professional, genuinely, I got like, a document from Nick upload this. Here's our structure.

Nick Lincoln:

Thank you, my friend, we we

Unknown:

know this is a compliment to us from listeners. It's like listening to lads in the pub. Yeah, that's what we are. We're a lot looser with our structure, and we talk a lot of nonsense. But then,

Nick Lincoln:

oh yes,

Alan Smith:

I don't, yeah, not editing it goes down and as is

Nick Lincoln:

Mr. Andrews. Let's go on to your first you've got, we're going to give you to you. You want to topic culture corners you're going to Mr. Andrews, so start off with your first

Unknown:

one. I definitely don't have two book in a

Nick Lincoln:

podcast. The fact that podcast is trapped, it's not the hint or the sorry, the notes, read the docket.

Unknown:

Now, can't pick a book, a book that is kind of important or that you felt was a good message. So I didn't want to. I'm not sure how well Harry Potter might have landed for our listeners, incredible series, but I read a book number of years ago now, called into thin air. It was by an author called John cracker, and it's about the 1996 carrying on from the doom and gloom. It's about the 1996 Everest disaster, where eight people lost their lives. Familiar with this story? Film from Netflix? Yes. Everest, starring Jake gyllenhas, Josh Brolin, brutal, yeah. It's a, it's not a, not a great topic. But the book John cracker himself, the author was actually a journalist for a National Geographic, and the original pitch of his book and why he was on he was on the actual expedition, was around the commercialization of Everest, that basically this incredibly dangerous but invigorating challenge of climbing the talisman in the world have been heavily commercialized, that people were paying adventure companies to get them to the summit. And those people were very wealthy. They may not have been experienced climbers, but they were basically paying, I need to basically get to the top of the summit here. Can you get me there? And the impact this was having on Everest, never mind the safety concerns. And sure enough, Dr getting bang for your buck. He was on this expedition, and eight people were killed, and the premise around it was kind of a life lesson. The the leaders of the expedition basically sacrificed processes safety, and there was a storm coming in. You guys probably have seen the film to just get people to the top, and they sacrificed all their years of training, their expertise for commercial purposes. And look, this is an extreme case. You people died because of that. But the message around, how strongly do you believe in your expertise, how strongly do you believe in your responsibility whatever service or product you're providing to someone? And does money change that? And that's kind of just a lesson to learn. We roll our eyes when we hear sports managers talk about sticking to the process, but it does work. It's there for a reason. And this instance, steps. It's a great story. I totally undersold that book. It is a refuge. It is a message that was one of key things going on took from that. I

Alan Smith:

agree. It's It's interesting as an experience you

Andy Hart:

must have done ever you've done it one Saturday or all the way to the top, completed Everest.

Alan Smith:

But what is fascinating now isn't it looking at Everest and seeing seeing the images of the literally queuing up at the top to hit this summit, because it is highly commercialized. Now,

Nick Lincoln:

that's why I won't do it. It's just lost its magic, just refused.

Unknown:

Why would you why? Yeah, that's good personal ambition. I

Alan Smith:

die. I think Everest base camp is very achievable for most of us. The actual full Summit is a different level, isn't it? It's just one of the restaurants, like

Andy Hart:

when I was when I was thinking about, okay,

Alan Smith:

I'll give you a go. I'll give you a 62nd story about things like that. When I was in training, I went, I went, I went to one o'clock. I went to Mount Snowdon in, you know, highest mountain in Wales, in England and Wales and and we were climbing up, and there's several different routes up Snowden, and the people I was with decided to take as the hardest possible route. And it wasn't easy. It was quite tricky. There was sort of lots of scrambling and sort of climbing up pretty sheer faces. Anyway we get to the top. I'm sweaty, and I just can't believe that we've managed to achieve it. And there was these two little old ladies sitting there having a cup

Unknown:

of tea with their coats, and Hell What. I didn't realize that

Alan Smith:

there's a funicular railway up the other side, and just people just get the lift up. There's little tea room at the top. Oh, up for that

Nick Lincoln:

Everest. And get rid of all the stupid walking nonsense, right? Good stuff. How do you listen to one podcast, which I understand, is called T, R, A, P. Is that

Unknown:

phenomenal show?

Alan Smith:

Phenomenal? Phenomenal. You can come back. Okay. Ultra

Andy Hart:

onto a repeat recommendation. Chris Williamson, modern wisdom, Jimmy Carr's back on, quite like Jimmy Carr, he's quite a deep thinker, sort of at my level, you know what I mean. And there was also another one he had on. Alex famosi, they're two great guests. Hey, we made it

Unknown:

Andy, the ultra club of Darren Andy. He knows about everything. Andy can't be told anything. His name is Andrew Hart.

Andy Hart:

Thank you. Nicholas, over to you. You look, you

Alan Smith:

just put Chris Williamson on every week as you stand, and he has homosy on every third week, doesn't he

Nick Lincoln:

technically the Jimmy car one's good. He is interesting. Jimmy Carr, yeah, deep storyteller. Let's wrap

Alan Smith:

this up. I think so. My recommendation is a new book. It's called the big print by Lawrence Lepard. Sounds like, suppose that leopard. Lawrence leopard. I think it's and this goes back to Andy's point on taxing the boomers and all this stuff. I think it's really important that financial advisors spend more time understanding our money system. It's because if you look forward the next few years, between our considerable level of spending and Nick I saw you post the other day about bond yields. You know, for 10 year yields for UK government, which are only going up, which cost of borrowing, so the cost of funding are increasing. Debt in this country is getting excruciating. People are getting taxed to death. There's a real squeeze happening. And I think it's important that advisors take a moment just to understand your sort of the under the basic money system and how the whole thing operates, because you'll be better informed to advise your clients. I've read a number of these books. This is the easiest read. It's simple, it's effective, and it's really easy to relate to. So the big print. Lawrence Lippard,

Nick Lincoln:

okay, in the interest of time, I don't have a podcast culture corner recommendation this week. I'll try. I gave up on Charlie munger's Poor Charlie's almanac. I found it tedious. He's best consumed in very small bites reading his speeches. I just did not get it. So I'm very dogmatic. If I don't I'm not enjoying a book. I just walk away. Put it down. So hopefully next episode 75 I'll have a culture corner that we can talk about right. There we go, dear TRAPPIST, Episode 74 has come to a close and is disappearing down the U bend of Father Time. Thank you for your input into the show. Please do leave a review on iTunes. Six out of five stars is mandatory. Leave a review on YouTube. Subscribe. We're well over 1000 of you lunatics now listen to this, which is great, but until the next time. Thanks massively to Mr. P Andrews Gaelic, footing superstar and financial planning superstar, basically keeping Metis Norway afloat is certainly keeping us afloat in the absence of of Mr. C with your thanks, Paddy, really appreciate your time today. Great. Thanks, Paddy, it's great. Adios fat back. We will see you on the other side. Take care out there. Goodbye,

Unknown:

later, guys. Goodbye. Bye, bye. You. Well done. Fair play. Guys, great Paddy, top class. Thanks for having me a pleasure. Awesome, awesome. Every

Alan Smith:

time we get a guest on nowadays, Paddy Rob Stevenson, it just elevates us a bit. There's another way better than I'm

Nick Lincoln:

just not recording that because, but it's true. Yeah.

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