80 - The Girl's Got Verve

In this latest pile of TRAP, the Trap Pack discuss

• Topical Titbits
• Meat and Potatoes: Cathi Harrison interview
• TRAPist question(s) from Lee Denham
• Culture Corner

Show links: http://tiny.cc/traplinks

============================
Take part in the conversation! We want YOU to suggest topics and questions you’d like the Trap Pack to answer. The best way to do this is to ask them here.

Help us to help you! The more followers we have, the more we can do stuff going forward. So please:

• Subscribe and Like our YouTube Channel
• Leave a 6/5 star review on iTunes
• Share TRAP with your peers and colleagues
• 'Enjoy' the Twitter chat at @AdviserPodcast.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:07

Foreign Welcome to The Real advisor podcast, T, R, A, P, T, T, please follow us and join in the conversation on Twitter at advisor podcast, where you can suggest ideas and themes you'd like the trap team to discuss. Also remember to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a six out of five star review on iTunes. Doing all this really, really helps us, which means we can do more to help you. Now, let's head over to the studio for the latest pile of trap yes,

Nick Lincoln: 0:41

indeed dear TRAPPIST, welcome back to what many people are calling episode 80 of the real advisor podcast 8160 weeks shoot me. Joining me as ever in the digital studio of doom are the three other Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Alan, the storyteller, Smith, Carl della vocci, the voice wiger And Emily Ultra heart, Now, gentlemen, we have a show packed full of app, absolutely nothing, so let's start unpacking it straight away with a high energy review. Read, read up by my very good friend, the right honorable Mr. Andrew ursan Hart,

Andy Hart: 1:18

thank you very much. Nicholas, we're all back in our home studios after the summer madness. This review is entitled, lovely stuff. Five stars. Started listening to Trapp a month before launching my own IFA firm two years ago, immediately booked onto the DFA course, took away all of the hassle of working out an investment proposition, allowing me to focus on the important stuff. Never underestimate the impact you have on the community. Heartfelt thanks to you all. Sound quality, excellent too. Grinning face emoji. That's from Greg Ballard of medhaven financial planning. Greg runs a great firm and is a cracking guy, so thanks for leaving that review for us. We are now officially out of reviews for me to read out. So please leave a review, and you'll be the next one that I read out. So we are, we are desperate once again, so please leave a review. Thank you very much. Over to you.

Alan Smith: 2:08

First place, Andy, to leave a review. Is it still Apple?

Andy Hart: 2:10

Apple, yeah, Apple, iTunes, sorry. Apple podcast platform that then sort of filter through twice, isn't it? I know it is a bit of a fast Yeah. Borrow your son or daughter's iPad and open up the app and help us out. If you've got an Android, it's funny. Maybe no

Alan Smith: 2:29

reviews, because the last review,

Nick Lincoln: 2:30

I think, mentioned, made a point about the sound quality not being so great. Maybe he's being sarcastic. Anyway. Thank you, Greg. Appreciate that.

Andy Hart: 2:37

Definitely been sarcastic. Nick, definitely been sarcastic. Okay, yeah, please do

Nick Lincoln: 2:41

keep them coming in. That was from September. Yeah, from September. Okay, from this month. Wow, 11. September was a date. Okay, good stuff. All right, let's, let's move on to the topical tip. Let's put a timestamp on episode 80 of the real advisor podcast. What loads to get through today? We have a guest joining us later on, but before that guest comes on. Let's see what's been going on in this thing of ours. I have an email our kids anonymous from a quilter advisor, a young advisor at quilter on the ongoing retreat from the ESG. Some would call it a grift. Others would not call it a grift. And those that wouldn't call it a grift would be wrong. And this email said, this is quilters words. The Responsible Investment questionnaire is being retired and should no longer be used with the clients to explore responsible investment preferences. Please delete any saved versions you have. Instead, focus should be on the issues and factors that matter most to the client and the advisor then says, one of our requirements was to take the client through the three stage mumbo jumbo questionnaire, Good work, good work that establishes attitude to risk, passive versus active investing preferences. And finally, ESG preferences, the questions were all incredibly leading towards active management and ESG dedicated funds. And then the advisor says, focusing on issues and matters that matter most to the client. Imagine that so credit to quilter for being another brand that seems to be pulling back from this nonsense. And I know that all not, I don't think you car, but certainly in the UK, all advisors were under a regulatory obligation to ask clients what their ESG preferences were. Yep, same here. Yeah, saying that. Okay, fine. How we actually, how much we actually adhere to that? I do not know. You can probably imagine my process for this. It's a good way to weed out the weirdos if they brought it up, and I certainly wasn't going to bring it up. But it's this, you know, with BlackRock and Vanguard and these other companies now, definitely pulling back from this. So for me, that's that's a good thing. Any thoughts packers,

Alan Smith: 4:38

my understanding is it remains a regulatory requirement to Yes, it does it raise identify, is it an issue? It is such a leading issue, and depends how you frame the question, you know, do Do you have any concern about your children or grandchildren? You know, yeah, you shaved him. But a yes, of course. But now, do you.

Andy Hart: 5:00

Like breathing. You like breathing? Yes,

Carl Widger: 5:02

yeah, that if you frame it for how you frame the question, you can take the regular the regulatory compliance issue by framing the question whatever way you want. And I suppose some people were framing the question to lead them down that ESG route in the past, but I guess not so much now anymore. Yeah.

Nick Lincoln: 5:22

Well, as the advisor says, The clients were all incredibly leading, not just towards ESG, but also active fund management, which, of course, is generally more profitable. What would

Alan Smith: 5:34

that question? What can you imagine that question would be, do you want someone to actively review a portfolio, take a decision you only pass, or just track the index, which goes down.

Andy Hart: 5:43

The alternative sounds so much worse, yeah. But in reality, it's going to beat it, you know, night and day. But anyway,

Nick Lincoln: 5:51

yeah,

Alan Smith: 5:52

interesting how these mean quote, quilts are a huge aren't they one of the biggest companies? I think. Are they maybe second only to SJP? There's a size scale, number of advisors, etc, the huge and so you imagine how, how they kind of channel clients down particular routes which are potentially more beneficial to the organization, just by framing questions. Quite an interesting one.

Nick Lincoln: 6:14

Yeah, yeah. And this, the active thing is still so I think, because we swim in the in our particular bowl that we, you know, we sometimes lose sight the fact that the active fund management side is still massive, as I put in our WhatsApp chat, I listened to a podcast from the the chief executive, yeah, Chief Exec of true potential, and he was blathering on about how he believes in active fund management and how he could defend against market volatility in those periods of uncer in all the normal claptrap, you know. And their true potential are not. These are not penny ante sort of players, the and quilts. You know, these are, these are big companies handling millions, billions, potentially, of money. Okay, imagine you're an advisor working for them. Yeah, exactly, Indeed, indeed, and yeah, incentives matter. You know, where's, Where's, where's the, where's the profit margin? Inactive, fund management, not in your low cost 10 bits global equity tracker, right? Watch. Give us some more good news from your side of the Irish Sea. Yes, he's

Andy Hart: 7:06

not even spoken yet.

Unknown: 7:15

This could

Carl Widger: 7:16

be a good news story. I've written a load of notes on this. Oh, so I'm sticking to facts that were written by other people. I'm not going to give much of an opinion. However, you will know what my opinion is as we go through this. So on the back of solar 21 Do you remember I spoke about that a lot, black B and trust and basically, the low note scandals, I would say that have gone before a new one. And I have to admit, I hadn't heard of these guys, and then everyone was like, you what you never heard of arena capital. So I have shared an article from The Irish Times about this particular firm, but there's actually another, much more detailed and in depth analysis done by Tom Lyons of the currency, which people in Ireland can have a look at if they're subscribed to the currency. Tom loves a good financial scandal, and he does a mega deep dive on a 57 page affidavit that was produced at the High Court last week, basically arena capital. Following on from the solar 21 they were doing wind turbines, and they were buying and selling. So we could tie this in with the whole ESG. Anyway, they were raising finance to buy wind turbines. And don't ask me anymore about that, but they raised an awful lot of money, and there is still 112 million outstanding in loan notes to investors, mainly, it seems, through pension funds. Now these loan notes, this this money was raised through the intermediary market. So the IFA market, as you guys would know it, in Ireland, and there were 190 intermediary firms who raised the money via their clients to give to this crowd arena capital. And they've run out a road and they have a deficit at the moment of approximately 65 million. So this isn't something that can be fixed anytime soon. They've tried to put themselves up for sale, and that failed, so now they're gone into interim examinership. They were promising the low note holders 10% returns Um, one thing that was interesting, a lot of the other firms were kind of raising loan notes for particular projects. But arena capital were raising it, and it was specified in the small print that they could use the money whatever way they want it. So we. Look, this is going to have a deep impact on an awful lot of families. There are, I think, something like 1100 investors, or something like that. It's, it's like, this is, this is wide ranging. This is significant. And I think the average case size is fairly big. I'm told this isn't in either article, but I have it on good faith that the Commission for arena capital started at 6% and perhaps went up, if you did, kind of went through various thresholds. That's hearsay, though, so I'm not saying that's a fact. Of course, if you did a pension product to facilitate this, you might well have been paid commission by that pension provider also. Now in the affidavit in the High Court, one thing that was said, which is probably the only little bit of good news in this. And obviously, the 190 advisors have a shit show on their hands, and they've a lot of explaining to do, and the clients who invest it are looking at catastrophe. You know, in a lot of cases, this will be their entire life savings. But interestingly, they said that their their mode of operandi was to raise finance from basically the intermediary market, so from brokers, and that this dried up in 2023 and almost entirely in 2024 so the small bit of bright spot news here is that maybe clients, but definitely brokers, intermediaries are basically going here. We can't do this again. Because of the solar 21 because of the black bees, because of the dolphin trusts, etc, etc. There were in the deep dive article. There are some strange transactions. It seems that they stopped paying people back in September 2024 but some people, they don't know based on what criteria were paid back since then, so they defaulted. But some people actually got made whole again. Look, it's it's crazy that this is going on. It's crazy that in 2020 2122 23 there were regulated advisors selling this type of unregulated product. Let's call it out, getting paid big commissions and foregoing what was always going to work and what will always work for their clients, which is basically index investing into the long term. Of course, that's not lucrative. Straight off. You need to have a long term relationship with your client in order for that to work well for your firm. I'm not saying everybody did it only for the money. I'm sure there are some just got, you know, totally sold on it, and thought this was a great idea. But once again, we have a scenario where, like, you know, 190 firms like, that's, that's kind of 15% I think, of the firms in Ireland, I was

Alan Smith: 13:17

gonna ask you what the what that represented, about 15% was not so it's not a it's not a tiny number, like just a few outliers is, like, there's a lot of lot of businesses, no, and it's

Carl Widger: 13:28

not there's, there's, there's a lot of chat in the background that I think is factual and probably will come out. I'm certainly not going to share it now. I'm not going to be the one sharing it. But some of the stuff going on, wow, oh my god, this is, this is just unbelievable stuff. So it's really sad. And look, my heart does go out to the families who are involved, because there are people their lives will be destroyed by this. You know, they're really well. So hopefully we've seen the back of low note, unregulated investment by regulated advisors.

Alan Smith: 14:05

Smithy, I've got a question and a statement. The does the equivalent of in the UK, we have, effectively, a compensation scheme, financial service compensate Do you have similar in Ireland?

Carl Widger: 14:19

Yes, we do, but it does not apply to unregulated investments.

Alan Smith: 14:24

Okay, so those people were, if they're wiped out, they're wiped out with no recourse, lost all their money. Yeah, no chance of recovery, or sounds like very little chance of any recovery. Interesting, because remember, in the UK or we've got the FSCS, although it did cover, or was attempted to cover non regulated, wide remember the mini bomb scandal few years ago. There's London capital finance, or something completely unregulated, and yet, I, if I recollect correctly, fair amount was paid out to investors there. Okay, there's that, there's that. The other. Thing, the statement I've got is this, and I just think, broadly speaking, this is really important. Excuse me, for anyone tuning into this or listening into this, is to have a documented investment philosophy. So you have an org you just and it could be one page. It could be like, in our case, about 500 pages. But there's a there's a simple way of just saying it does this. There's about this would immediately fail. The very first question that you asked Alan, the people, the people just kind of determine or discuss, they're not gonna

Nick Lincoln: 15:31

care. They're not gonna have a document.

Andy Hart: 15:34

Yeah, this is

Alan Smith: 15:35

no no, I agree. But there's others listening, none of these people, if they're so focused. So we are speculating. I didn't know anything about this until earlier. If it's driven by commission and receiving the highest possible commission, there's no, there's no help for

Andy Hart: 15:47

you. That's the bulk of that. These 190 firms on

Alan Smith: 15:52

philosophy, some might have been sold to a quite, you know, a slick presentation, and wind turbines are the future. Blah, blah, blah. We're going to do this. And, you know, I do remember my early days in the business getting, you know, on the receiving end of some what looked on the face of it to be quite exciting, interesting opportunity. You thought, hmm, maybe. And I didn't really have a framework. I just trusted my gut in those days. Remember all the film partnerships and what have you, cruises in India. And just, yeah, I just, not sure, but a lot of people did fall for that in

Carl Widger: 16:23

the case. So say, say, if that was the case, Alan, in the you know, you'd have to do your due diligence. Say, if you said, okay, for someone's playpen, we're gonna have, you know, yeah, cryptocurrency and these wind turbines, if you were Yes, right, okay, and I yeah, I could, I could say, hmm, I wouldn't agree with that, but Okay, if that's where you wanted to go, I could see the argument around that. But then, if you did your due diligence to say you're you have no recourse on any particular asset or particular project, we're going to be allowed to do with it whatever we want. And we had a famous case way back well before the solar 21 and the black bees Custom House capital. And basically they were moving money between projects as they saw fit, which they said they weren't going to do, but that's what they were doing to try and save various projects. And that's why the whole thing went the Custom House capital. Thing went pear shaped. And I said this before, right? I remember back when Custom House capital were on the go, and we were all those of us who went, Hmm, doesn't seem it just doesn't seem like a good idea. We were idiots. We were absolute idiots because they were selling to the rich and famous, and they were making so much money. And there are there, you know, anecdotally, there's no, I'll stop there. I won't go with my anecdotes, but there's some of the stuff that was going on. And I looked, they do have a arena financial services division as well. So they have an IFA that was one of the biggest producers that this, according to the article. Anyway, look, it's just really, really sad. You know, have your investment philosophy, stick to it, and you know that will.

Alan Smith: 18:06

The trouble is, Carl, it's just, it's a sad indictment on the Irish financial services industry. That's that's the problem. You unfortunately are tarnished with it because you're running a great business. Put it to the to an outsider. Are you one of those guys? Did you sell that as well? Doesn't get any of us anything I'm going

Carl Widger: 18:22

to talk about the FBI conference shortly. You know, there are loads of great people as well. There really are. And I think they will, we will all together drag it kicking in streams, screaming into the new world and with the right way to do it. So, yeah, this one is going to play out, and there's going to be more news on this one for sure.

Nick Lincoln: 18:42

Okie dokie, right, all right, let's, let's try and bring some good news. We can't really ultra but this, can we go on,

Andy Hart: 18:49

moving on from the unfortunate, the trivial? Yeah, so a very brief story. You know, the sort of the talk is, AI is going to replace everything. AI is going to make things immediately in lightning speed. Yeah, it all sounds great. And then the providers get involved. So this is a provider story. I was doing a pension switch for a client. Took ages to get everything together, like it always does, and right the last minute, they said the post code doesn't match for the client. We've obviously looked into it, spent a bit of time. Does the post code match? We looked at it and we said, Yeah, we think the post code does match. Well, basically what happened is, in the UK, there's a certain way to obviously, you know, write post code. So we've got three characters, we have a space, then we have another three characters. That's typically how these post codes are written. Sometimes it's four, then space, then three. Anyway, it turns out the provider had the post code as three characters, no space, three characters, so the characters aligned. But we submitted it with three characters, a space and then three characters. This is delayed it till this day. This is a major, well known provider. So the only issue about the post code did. Match was we had a space, which is the correct format, via the Royal Mail, they didn't have a space. And this has now been delayed for this long. You couldn't make this up. I was, uh, I was telling this story to another financial advisor, and they said, Yeah, we've got a weird one at the moment. I said, Yeah, Gordon hit me. I said, we got a client whose name is Ewan, as in E U A N. He said he rung up and major known provider recently to try and get some information. He's been with his provider for 20 years, and about about two years ago, someone on the system changed his name from Ewan to Evan. So they've got him as Ewan for 18 years and Evan for two years. He cannot speak to them about anything. Now they will not speak to this client because he's not the person on the system. He's all the details. The same has sent stuff to his house, but because he's been Evan for two years, they will not deal with this client now. He'll have to do a change in name. He'll have to just anyway. So that's my um, just insane stories that providers come up with. It could be a new a new post coke corner, and you've got a similar story, haven't you? Nicholas, yeah, not dissimilar. Source, our

Nick Lincoln: 21:03

clients live in the same property for years and years and years, but a couple of years ago, the local authority changed their post code for whatever reason, the last two digits of their post code, the client didn't tell his pension provider. Why would he? So the client's pension providers got the old post code. We're now doing a pension switch, and there's it's just going back and forth because and all you got to bloody do pension provider who starts with art and ends with most, all you've got to do is Google it and the bloody address will come up with that with the new post code, okay, Carl, come on, bring up some good news. You said there's some good guys. And we know there are some good guys and girls. Don't forget the girls, good guys and girls in the Irish advisor community. And I understand that you are getting together actually, I know. Sorry, I've left. I've left a nice at me. I'll come play very quickly. Transact have launched a podcast, and the first three episodes are out. And I listened to it. And in the very first episode, the CEO of transact, Tom Dunbar, guess what he mentions the very first podcast he refers to is the real advisor podcast, and how he shares clips from the episodes to the management team, uh, when he thinks it pertains to their business and the platform. Wow.

Andy Hart: 22:07

He's, he's, he's big cheese, you know, he's CEO of a FTSE 250 company. He was definitely

Carl Widger: 22:13

not gonna clip the thing about, uh, post code space. But that's never going to be

Andy Hart: 22:18

the provider that are helping me with this. They are the provider helping me

Nick Lincoln: 22:21

with this. Man, I think that could be a new theme for us the boards of many FTSE listed financial services companies, car I think you did. Yeah. Okay, so that's good news. I thank you for that. Tom appreciate the shout out on that. And while we're there, Smithy, you've won the same line putting about the DFA movie. It was just

Alan Smith: 22:37

sort of sharing, sharing content. Other friends of the podcast. We've mentioned this before. The dimensional fund advisors along the way to this film that has been around for a while now, Nick and I went to see it at a cinema. That's how our lives go. But it's now available for mass consumption on YouTube. The dimensional story called Tune out the noise, I think, which is worth an hour of your time. The link is in the show notes. That was it? Or what's it called for some great news.

Carl Widger: 23:06

Is this the am I now talking about the financial you are now talking about conference, so the financial planners of Ireland, I know loads of the people involved in this. You basically have to be a CFP to be involved. So I'm not allowed to go. And rightly so, and absolutely, 100% rightly so. This is run by volunteers. I know plenty of people on the board. I think there's five of them on the board at the moment. They have their conference coming up. They a bunch of the CFPs in Metis go to it every year, and they always come back and go, You know what? This was bloody brilliant. This year. They have an Olympian talking at it. They have a father and son team coming from the states who with 14 staff, run a firm with 2.2 or 2.4 billion. I definitely want to hear that story right for sure. But, um, yeah, look, if you are a CFP and you're not going there's a link in our show notes you should get on register, because, apart from anything else in terms of the guests, and they have loads of great guests lined up, you will, for sure, meet all the people that I just said are going to drag this whole profession into the I think their theme is looking forward to 2030 even that theme that name itself, right? Well, there are people looking into like, that's still short term, isn't it, right? But in our business, for the product sellers, that's like, Oh, what are you talking about? We're looking at the next quarter. These people are doing financial planning the right way. They've done the exams. They're running it on a voluntary basis. Fantastic people. Get there, get your ticket. Get there. You're going to meet loads of great

Nick Lincoln: 24:46

people. Okay, great stuff.

Andy Hart: 24:47

Well, following on from back from your hand raised. Sorry, gone. Oh no, sorry, yeah. Following on from conference recommendations. I've just booked the C, I S, I conference on the second and third of. Of October, just outside London. So if you're interested in going, they do a two day session with the black tie event on the first night. It's always good. So do check it out. CIS, I 2025 conference. Over to you, Alan,

Carl Widger: 25:16

you're muted. Alan,

Alan Smith: 25:20

it's like, I've never done this before, that conference you're talking about, you know, it reminds me of what used to be the Institute of financial planning in the UK. We go back to my early days in business. I think Andy, you might have gone, not sure if Nick many times Celtic Manor, yeah. So it was exactly that. That was the, the original, the kind of CFP, bods, and it was the UK version of that, the Institute of financial planning, brilliant. I mean, there was a real community was built up for that. And I would say is kind of a lot of the foundations of the modern UK financial planning community were based in there. And you still, you know, some of the faces and names that we still sort of know to this day were, you know, originally, early stage, just sort of forming, discussing, sharing thoughts and ideas. It was a great community for many years. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the Institute of financial planning failed to plan their finances. As an organization, ran into a bit of trouble, I think, and ultimately were consumed by the organization, sadly, just refer to ci si. So I think if you're able to, you and your colleagues, able to get into that at an early stage, it's really exciting to be part of that early stage group of community. There's not many people like you. You're all sharing thoughts and ideas. So I'd endorse that from a UK perspective, because I was part of that early stage community out at Celtic Manor, as you say.

Andy Hart: 26:38

Did you ever go to Celtic Manor, Nick, or was that above your

Nick Lincoln: 26:41

station? No, I thought if I drove past the other day on the way to the Brecon Beacons. It's a very impressive building, isn't it, hotel complex. It sort of stands on it looks like it's a whole cliff edge building, but no, I never I had to have a good reason to go to Wales, and that wasn't strong enough, right? What's next on the agenda? I think it's store. Yeah, yes. A storyteller. PCLs, okay,

Alan Smith: 27:06

just interested, just raising this as a thing. Interested in you. You got UK guys observations. It happens every year. Let's face it, pension commencement, lump sum, tax free cash from pensions in old money, as we call it, we've got this couple of things. So there's a budget now, you know the pre Christmas budget. I think we'll call it a couple of weeks before Christmas. We got a budget this year. So there's intense speculation. Now, more so than ever. We, as I say, we have it every year, and we dismiss it every year. But with the the incumbent government we've got right now, it feels like you wouldn't put anything past them to to look at ways to extract taxation. So all of a sudden, this is maybe a little more real or relevant to to those who've got pension funds and got and they have the ability to access their tax free cash. Some that's that's one aspect of it. The other is, of course, and I've just chatting to a colleague in the office the other day, talking about clients who have got capped tax free cash sums. Can't remember the number 260 you. Experts will know you. 268 263,200 68,000, come on. Nick, Nick, Nick,

Nick Lincoln: 28:16

Nick, so it's 268, something, something, something. 26821,

Alan Smith: 28:21

strange number. So if you're at that level, or you know that's that's the maximum you can get. The advice for many is, just take it out. Take it out now, because it can't grow, you can't get any more tax free cash from it, why don't you take it out now, allocate it to another investment account and allow it to grow that in certain circumstances. I know, I know it's not clear, right? But that's a number of 275, did you? But there's definitely certain circumstances where people would be doing that. It's just interesting that there is definitely a much higher level of interest because of Rachel Reeves her forthcoming budget and everything else that's going on countries in a fiscal mess, wouldn't be a bad thing. And what do you do to a client who says that I really, I just don't want to take the risk. I hear what you say, boys and girls, but why? You know, birds in the hand, I'll just take

Nick Lincoln: 29:12

it. Oh, that's fine. If the client says that, I would suggest you don't do that for X, Y, Z reasons in your situation. But at the end of the day, it's their money. Crack on

Alan Smith: 29:21

money, the data is, just to be clear on that, the article that posted a link to 13 billion, there's not a small number. 13 billion has been withdrawn already in, I think this year from I think

Andy Hart: 29:30

it was a higher number, Alan, referring to your article, I think you said 18 billion compared to 11 billion last year. So there is sorry, yes,

Alan Smith: 29:38

I stand corrected, 18. Yeah.

Nick Lincoln: 29:39

Well, this is the big for me, 7 billion. And I'm sure we're all, we're sure we're all thinking about different ways. There's a confluence of things going on here. Because, of course, in April 2027, pension funds are going to be pulled back into the inheritance tax where, yeah, that as well. But that's too that, you know, you you've got. A while till that comes along and you take your money out of your pension fund to put it into your estate. Now, the sods law is that you die the next day, and suddenly 40% potentially that PCLs is going to be taxed at, is going to go in inheritance tax. You bring it out a tax free environment into so complicated matters. It's not a black and white thing. It really planning. There's no rules of thumb. Both you want to talk under me simultaneously. That would really help you carry

Andy Hart: 30:29

on. I'll just talk at the same

Alan Smith: 30:32

time. There's, again, this is anecdotal, just our own sort of small sample set experience that it is a challenging environment for many people in the economy, and I think some you know, affluent parents are using this as opportunity to gift funds to their children, you know, sort of kids in their 20s, maybe 30s, and withdraw access from their pension, conventional lump sum, and hand them across as part of a sort of multi dimensional inheritance tax, planning, gifting, removing money from the potential clutches of Rachel Reeves, etc. So yeah, it's not, it's not black and white, but the rules used to always have a kind of basic rule of thumb, leave your pension, leave it to last, don't touch it, etc. All bets are all out the window. There's a lot of things. Everything is tailored. Everything is tailored. So that's a big number, though to be withdrawn, 18 billion, if it's up from 11. That's a hell of a hell of a move in the last little while, and I'm sure it's really affecting you percentage of assets, fee model, boys, but that's another story.

Unknown: 31:38

All right. Nicholas, you can talk now.

Nick Lincoln: 31:41

Thank you. Permission, grassy, watch,

Carl Widger: 31:44

yo what's next? Irish Life, yeah, Irish Life have launched a gold fund. So I look I just had a little wry smile, like Irish Life investment managers have done absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever by launching a gold fund, because gold has obviously gone up and up and up and up and up for the last year or so. But it just, I just had a little smile that, you know, this is what the investment fund managers do. They chase the money, don't they? That's their job. And, you know, whatever is doing, well, right? Let's get a fund, and let's try and track that, because will gold continue to rise? I don't know. Do some people think, in their investment philosophy, they should have a holding to gold? They do. I wouldn't believe that that's the right thing to do, but I'm not going to diss anybody who has that as part of their investment philosophy. So maybe having a liquid gold fund out there from Irish Life is a good idea, but look, it is. I'm just minded of when, you know, I came out from my broker consultant days, and I had the brainwashing from the active fund manager I worked for. And I really did believe their story. I really 100% believe their story. And I thought all of the brokers I was talking to at the time that I was telling them the truth, because it was my truth. It's just really incumbent on and really important that everybody decides what that that we we've I mentioned it again, what's their investment philosophy, and then you kind of stick with it, and don't go chasing what is the next best thing, even if it's an old type of asset like gold, you know, because I could see younger advisors going, yeah, yeah, maybe that's the right thing to do. And if Sure, if i should i for coming out with fund, well, Jesus, I better get involved with that. You know, have your philosophy and stick with

Andy Hart: 33:37

it. So how much of the Metis 100 fund are you allocating to this new gold fund call?

Carl Widger: 33:42

We haven't changed our investment philosophy since I met you boys back in 2018 change your life. Though brilliant.

Alan Smith: 33:53

But here's the thing, you can't believe Irish Life Is it is they are what I refer to as the business area, asset gathering machines, and so whatever's flavor of the month, and it absolutely is, and the gold, gold is at an all time high. So therefore, as always, rear view mirror. So people then will pile in right now. But, and that's why I mentioned it before, and you just alluded to it there. Carl, if you've got a clear, documented investment philosophy, you won't, you know you can make Ray Dalio and people, other sort of so called experts do make a compelling case for gold, but within our investment philosophy, we've documented what position does it hold? Is it for defensive assets? Is it for growth? And so it's positioned as a growth asset and inflation sort of protection? Is it the best growth assets available, and it's not looking, you know, as his using history as our guide, using the data, it's not therefore, because we've got documented philosophy, we can't jump on the latest bandwagon. But, you know, we talked about ESG, we're talking about gold. There'll be something else around next week.

Carl Widger: 34:55

Yeah, look, just to reiterate the points, right? It is like Irish Life should be. Innovating like this. They've done nothing wrong. It's just, you know, can the people advising the clients? Have you got your philosophy and are you sick anyway? One flag a dead horse. I just thought

Nick Lincoln: 35:10

coming back and forth the microphone, fella, but your levels in my ears are going down, up and down. Are you moving about much?

Carl Widger: 35:15

Yeah, don't think so. Let me see if I can fix that. I'm right.

Nick Lincoln: 35:19

We got a crack on because I guess waiting in the lobby. We're already 35 minutes in. I'll minutes in Ultra I asked how much of a success hum South Africa was? I'm sure it was the best conference ever.

Andy Hart: 35:28

Surely, yeah, I'm still on a bit of a high coming back from South Africa. It's always a bit surreal, obviously, running a podcast the other side of the world, the other hemisphere, but there was lots of trap fans out there, which is also pretty insane, coming up to me during the break, saying that they listen and how are you boys doing and having a bit of a laugh. But that was really good. It was at the VNA, where you boys have been. Carl, not yet. Yeah. It was great. Went really well yet. Yeah, an Irish strip brew in 2026 cost a few people.

Alan Smith: 36:02

That's too big a name. Now you should have

Andy Hart: 36:05

gotten four years ago,

Carl Widger: 36:07

invite around this time every year, the week or two after and then it just goes on a little bit quiet.

Andy Hart: 36:15

But I went really well. I went out with two UK advisors that are doing great work in the UK. Keith button of boost and Scott Miller of thin over money, they both did great talks. All the speakers got very high scores. We had a world, world champion public speaker. She got 9.3 which is one of the highest scores we've ever got. Anyway. It was all good, all good, but not resting on our laurels, always trying to put on a great show. Now, I've got my full focus on London. So we're about six, seven weeks away from London now, but yeah, all was good. And thank you all for anyone who's listening to this that came out to hum SA and yeah,

Carl Widger: 36:52

are we all going to home London? I booked my flights this morning, Andrew, so I will

Andy Hart: 36:58

be just depends on the when's it on what time, what time you arrive, and what time you head to the pub? So, yeah,

Nick Lincoln: 37:04

we're going to go straight to the pub. Okay, seriously, that's a proper, proper, proper achievement, and the amount of things you're juggling is that is amazing. So well done. Thank you very much. Thank you on pulling it off yet again. Okay, so on the, on the IFA forum, tiny.cc/ifa forum. There's an ongoing chain. In fact, there's an email this afternoon about prospects who want to get references from existing clients. Should you do it or should you not? And I guess it all depends on the maturity or not of your business. I'm at a stage now where I just get new inquiries referred to me exclusively from existing clients. So I don't get asked for references anymore, because the clients have come to me already, or the prospects have come to me already, kind of with the reference, because they've said, you know, that they've come to me via existing clients who obviously aren't that pissed off with me enough not to do so. So that's great news, but I just wonder what the thoughts of the track pack are on this particular thing. To me, it's kind of a red flag. If a client asks a prospect, ask for client, refer references, and I don't do it, but you guys have any thoughts

Carl Widger: 38:07

I do, I wouldn't see it as a red flag at all. In fact, I would. I'd probably do that myself if I was looking to invest my life savings. We have our client advisory panel who are happy to take calls from prospective clients at any stage. And I have done that third act series, which has been very successful because they are real stories from real clients, over a 40 minute chat about their backgrounds or whatever. So we'd oftentimes send prospective client a link to one of those interviews, because we'd kind of go. They're a little bit like you have a look at this story from this from from this client, family. So absolutely not what I see it as a red flag. In fact, I would see that these people are very serious. And I would say, you know, they're looking to get into a long term relationship with us. So happy days.

Andy Hart: 38:57

Yeah, I take on board all the points. I don't do it now, but I have done over the years. Yeah, I'm sort of Nick It's a bit of a red flag. Usually, I've come highly recommended from someone. It's not a cold intro, but I understand why they do it. From your points Carl, life savings are being managed. It's not, you know, we're not selling flowers or something. So it is a big ticket item. But my point is, I often find it to be pointless. Just play out the scenario. I'm just about to become a client. Andy, I want to be introduced to some other clients that you're looking after that are successful. Yeah, no problem. I've got a call Sarah and Jane and say, right, I've got a new client. It's called Carl. He wants to speak to successful clients. I look after you. Okay? To take the call? Yes, I am. I go back to you, Carl and say, right, I've got these two names. Call them whenever you want. You may call both of them. You might call one of them. You might not call any of them. If you call them, I think they're gonna be quite pro me, because I've given you clients I look after successfully. I'm not gonna give you dud names. Yeah, cool, cool, cool. Terry, he, you know, he hates me. I've done a terrible job for him. It's not gonna happen. Happen so and then obviously, what I mean, it's just a big charade for busy people and the names that are going to be proposed that are pro you. That's my opinion. That's you could

Carl Widger: 40:14

do it much easier. So do exactly what we do. Our client advisory panel have agreed that we can hand out their number. We don't even ring them and say not

Andy Hart: 40:23

everybody has a client advisory panel. So everyone

Carl Widger: 40:27

has two or three or four, I'll tell you how exactly.

Andy Hart: 40:30

So they're just going to be pro they're just going to be pro me. They're not going to say he's done a crap.

Carl Widger: 40:36

It's a little bit like I have a client. There's more to it than that. Yeah, yeah. He asked me about fees every year, can we reduce the fees? And I like, go, No, right? And he goes, Yeah, I I hope you don't mind me asking. I just for me. I just want to ask. And I'm like, totally fine. We're never why

Andy Hart: 40:53

we run our own businesses. We do what we want. Alan, over to you.

Alan Smith: 40:58

This is we've talked about this before in our private groups. This is one where Carl and I agree, and you two disagree. I look back some of the origin story of this comes from Nick Murray. Nick Murray's very hot on this. He says it's a red flag. He says, No one asked their surgeon. They're going for open heart surgery. Can I get a reference? And I remember thinking that time, you've got a completely that's entirely different thing, you know, a surgeon in a hospital versus some random guy with a website that's going to take across their life savings. And there's not it's not unreasonable. So I think that the thing you're right, of course, we're all expecting the person or people that you give as a reference are going to say a positive thing, but it's more the process to go through, to say, and they might wish to ask them, but what was it like? How you know, how often did you meet did you bring your wife along? Did you bring your husband? They want to know a little bit more about the process from it. And it's not as if, Is he any good? Is he going to run away with my life savings? Is he going to put me into a wind turbine fund or not? You know what? I mean, they want to know a little bit more from somebody who's got experience, and often it's just a box ticking, just the 95% there. I just want to just get a little bit more confirmation, a bit of feedback. I don't think it's unreasonable at all. And the way that we identify that is when we take on clients, particularly if they've come from a referral source, when we have the and we've talked about this before, we have when we have them in for our welcome meeting, and we often take them out and have a bit of lunch or something. It's one of the things that will kind of weave in into the conversation. Look, from time to time, when we bring on new clients, they do ask us to have a chat with somebody. Would you be open to having that conversation? And almost everyone says, Yeah, sure, no problem. Let me know. So you should have a ready bank of good people who are the key is a bit like them, a bit like your current, your then prospective client, and they jump on a call for 10 minutes. Just want to ask you a couple of things, and it's just a it's just a tick in the box I absolutely don't see as a red flag. I see is pretty reasonable, but again, it's just a matter of opinion.

Nick Lincoln: 42:56

Okay, all right, I'm sorry to cheer you on here, but I'm aware that we've got a guest in the lobby, and we still got some to get through, just very quickly. Closing on this. This email chain has been going on for a few few days now, and the same prospect has come back to the advisor concerned already quibbling about the ongoing fees. Second red flag. So I think these things are interlinked. And the guys also said, Oh, you mentioned fund and timeline. Could you tell me why you think this is a good solution for me, because I'm on this other forum where some people are questioning, and it's like, red my response, this is the biggest red flag since Chairman Mao's funeral. Get this waster out of your life yesterday, right? Let's move on. Yeah. Okay, so watch calls for new Ss,

Carl Widger: 43:40

no idea. Yeah, I'll do this very quickly. And I just wanted to kind of bring it up. We have a budget upcoming in probably two and a bit weeks. The SSI is our version of the isat that we had for a period of time, and the government topped up savings or whatever. I've been banging on about it for a long time. And then people are now coming out, saying that they're they've decided that this is a new idea. It's not a new idea. We should do it. It will help the youth of today get on the property ladder, if it does nothing else, and it might start a Ireland on the wealth, driving our own wealth, as opposed to waiting for anybody else. So we should do it. So let's just see, will it come out? It probably won't. Okay.

Nick Lincoln: 44:24

Thank you. Oh, gosh, okay, very quickly. Specialist, recruiter, storyteller,

Alan Smith: 44:29

calm yourself. Nicholas, this is really important.

Nick Lincoln: 44:32

We have a guest who's gonna go in 20 week. Well, you've, you've put too many things on the docket. Oh, I put too many things. Well, this as forgiveness. Age.

Andy Hart: 44:41

I'm happy it's not John with my story. Nick. So

Alan Smith: 44:45

thank you. Yeah. Can you do so this is really important. We get a lot of communication from often younger financial planners looking to maybe make a career change. Look to another firm they've been working in organizations that don't necessarily embrace the core. Concepts that we espouse a trap, and they're looking for, you know, advice. Do you know anyone else who's recruiting and hiring? So I was contacted. I've had a couple of calls with a recruiter by the name of James Barden. What's different about James is that he was a financial planner some years ago. He, you know, he knows the ropes. He's worked in our industry for a long time. And the key thing is about knowing what full fat financial planning actually is, and knowing if someone's looking to get into that world, just, you know, don't move them from Company A to Company B, and it's out of the frying pan into the fire. So James did just a boutique, I think he's a one man band, but he knows the industry, knows the individual players really well, so put a link to his details in the show notes, and if you are looking for a chat about maybe looking to work for a proper financial planning company. James is your man. And specifically, I've also wanted to mention someone by the name of Llewellyn Morgan. Llewellyn Morgan a good Scottish name who runs a firm which has been, by his admission, influenced by trap firm called Meredith Morgan Taylor, I think, I think they're in the west country. I think they're actually in Exeter. Looking at their website in the West Country, they are actively recruiting. Got in touch to me. Just says we are looking for a kind of junior type financial planner to come and and join them. So I just want to join a few dots. If there are people in the West Country they are looking for to work in proper financial planning companies, speak to James and or speak to Llewellyn, and I wish you well. Thank you.

Carl Widger: 46:25

Sounds perfect for you. Andy,

Nick Lincoln: 46:27

great stuff. Okay, right? We're at 46 minutes in. I think it's time we move on to the meat and potatoes of episode 80, and we have a guest. We have a guest who's going to enter the Digital Studio, a well known name in this thing of ours. Let's bring her in.

Carl Widger: 46:44

Nick would you put your hand on this?

Unknown: 46:48

Hi, there's somebody at the door.

Nick Lincoln: 46:55

Welcome Kathy Harrison to the real advisor podcast. How are you doing?

Unknown: 47:01

Hello, I'm good. Thank you. How are you? We're all bitching with each other. Sound working? Okay, yeah, yep. Oh, good. So think I'm on a bit of a delay, sorry.

Nick Lincoln: 47:12

Okay, so to our audience, you will be, I think you'll be, I think you'll be pretty well known to our audience. Kathy, but in your own words, give us a quick 32nd summary of who you are and of who you are and the various the 38 different brands that you

Unknown: 47:29

represent. I will sorry there really is a delay here, because I can see you speaking, and then you stop speaking, and then I hear it. So I'm really sorry if this is junkie, but so I am the CEO of verve. It was a business I founded as power planning business 16 years ago, and then launched a compliance business, then launched a training business, mushed them all together, and it became Verve as of three years ago. And separate to that, there's also the Verve Foundation, which is a not for profit that runs kind of alongside it. So there's technically only two brands now, I kind of squish them all to make everybody's life a little bit easier.

Nick Lincoln: 48:06

Good stuff, good stuff. Alan, I think you want to lead off the conversation

Alan Smith: 48:11

with Kathy. Hi, Kathy, good to Good to see you. We are bumping into each other at various conferences over the while, and it's great that you could come along and join us today, because I'm just from where we stand. You're doing a lot of really interesting things. I'd love to just spend a few minutes talking about the I can't remember exactly what it's called, but the one that Haley is very involved with, this kind of incubator, foundation type thing, because we've, I think we've, we've sent a few people her way or your way, but I think it's an opportunity just for you to sort of talk a bit about that, because from what I see, is a really valuable resource for lots of for financial planners. So tell us more about what that's all about.

Unknown: 48:55

Absolutely, yeah. So yes, you have sent lots of people, I'm aware. So thank you very, very much. So many times have I interviewed people to join the incubator, and they've heard about it from this podcast. So thank you guys. So the incubator came about, I guess there was two kind of parts to it. One is through verve, we've got a compliance part, and we work with firms going or individuals that can go directly authorized, which is fine, you can do all the borrowing regulatory stuff. But actually they just had so many questions about starting one business, figuring out clients, figuring out the proposition, so we were kind of helping them out, but it was all very like one on one, on an individual basis, and it felt like we could probably be a bit smarter about that. Get everybody together, like help them kind of share and support each other. And then I think the other thing of it is because I've always started my own businesses in, like, a bit of a vacuum. I've never been in any kind of program, and I know very much as a business owner, how lonely it can be. So we kind of thought, well, actually, you know, I really like, like, small, independent advice firms. I like to. See things that are a little bit different in finance, I like to see people trying new things, which you just don't get that same level of sort of innovation, I guess, and testing stuff when you're looking at kind of the really big businesses. So actually, what could we do to help more of these smaller businesses get started and get up and running? And for those advisors considering doing it for them to just feel a little bit less daunted by it. So that's where the incubator came about. We've got run cohorts 17 and 18 at the minute. So that's 880 businesses roughly, and that we've helped over the years, either initially considering it, sort of understanding their options, what it's, you know, the pros and cons of running a business and but then also da versus network, and then actually helping them get up and running to the point then actually when they're starting to grow for the first time, and maybe take somebody on. So yeah, it's been going amazingly.

Alan Smith: 50:53

I think it's a brilliant resource, Kathy. And just to be clear, it's you're getting funding and sponsorship from somebody. So it's actually, it's free. Effectively, there's no actual money changes hands on to get that. It's a it's a no brainer, if someone is thinking that. And I think what you said there, I think all of us were. I mean, two of them are still by themselves because they can't get anyone to work with them. But when you start off and you are by yourself, remember those days Carl, before you get a few people around you? Yes, it is really lonely, and you think you've got a good idea, but you think, but maybe I'm mad, and maybe Can I just bounce it off someone else? And to have the power of community, it's really important to have other like minded people on that same journey with you and just sort of shape your ideas. Think it's fantastic.

Unknown: 51:40

Yeah, it is, I think. I mean, firstly, the incubator in particular has been sponsored by Royal London, so I have to do a massive, massive thank you to them. They just absolutely love support and like the small, independent advice firms. But it is that I think sometimes I think advisors, and I've always found it paraplanners as well, like people in financial services and genuinely so supportive. Nobody's there going, Oh, it's my business. I can't tell you anything about it. Everybody's very keen to kind of share and say, you know, there's not a single right answer, but here's the way that I do it. And also, sometimes I find when you're on your own, there could be a question that you've got, and you could spend like, three hours going down a rabbit hole trying to fix it. Or you could ask somebody, and they've got it in 30 seconds. So it's that time save as well. Of like, you know, we've all been there and tried to figure this out. How do we just make it a little bit more efficient? Good stuff. Call me Kathy Harrison. Kathy Harrison, yeah,

Carl Widger: 52:32

I'm obviously very aware of Kathy's business, but we've, we've, we've never actually met. So Hi, Kathy. I did have a look at the website in advance of today's chat. And there's a lot there. There's a lot of services that you're doing. But what I'm more interested in is finding out, because there's an awful lot of and your incubator is doing this is bringing kind of the younger folk a lot. So there's an awful lot of younger people watching and listen to this. What was life before 2009 How did you get to where you are now? And just a little bit about your backstory and and kind of some of the challenges that you kind of met along the way as you built your business, and obviously you've brought all the brands into, as you say, kind of just one or two different brands now. So just to talk a little bit about that journey, how you got to where you are now, and give us a bit of insight around that?

Unknown: 53:25

Yeah, absolutely. So I, as everybody, fell into finance, so I went to university. Just after college, I was working at Royal Mail. I didn't think I wanted to do any more studying. And then, kind of after a year, just Well, I was at Royal mill for six years, but after a year of doing it full time, kind of thought, I don't think I want to be a post lady forever. So went to uni just for something to do. And while I was there, it was basically my boyfriend. At the time, his ex girlfriend had received an inheritance from her father, who passed away, and I always remember it because he said, Oh, you know, she's received 100,000 pound and she's gone to see financial advisor to go and get some advice of what to do with it. Because 100,000 Pound was huge amount of money. And I just remember thinking, I have absolutely no idea what an advisor would say to somebody like, I have no idea where I would even be getting if somebody you suddenly came up with 100,000 pound, and that's what kind of piqued my interest. So when I left uni, and I was trying to find something to do, and I was thinking about going to HR, I did business at uni, just nice and generic, there was a job advert at local financial advisor for an administrator to just kind of go in and start, you know, scanning and filing and photocopying and all the rest of it. So kind of fell into finance, but it was also it was that conversation, and it was that realization that there's this whole massive world out there that I just know absolutely nothing about. And it was actually years later I was doing like a business course. It was specifically a business course for women, and they did kind of quite a lot of coaching. And I said. The time, you know, I fell into finance. And the lady there on the call, she kind of, like, really dug into my my backstory, and kind of where I come from and everything. And she'd said she doesn't believe for a minute it was kind of accidental, or that I fell into finance, that it very much came from growing up very poor. Nominate all, like, Absolutely, just in a position that I never wanted to be in as an adult, and I never wanted my own children to be in, that what that did was triggered something given me that meant I wanted control over finance in future, because I had none of that control as a child. And so that's, that's why I was at Royal Mail, and I was kind of, you know, I've always played around with, like, business in college, and then in uni, there was something in me that was like, actually, how do I get this control in future that I never have to have, kind of from the past, which I just find fascinating. Because I think when we talk about getting new people into finance, I think there's loads we can do as an industry. I think there's loads we can do to kind of, you know, promote it in schools, education, generally, like all the stuff that we talk about. But I also think we can't change somebody's internal perception of money and finance, and that's going to have a massive driver on the ultimate career they choose and whether a career in finance would even kind of be suitable for them. So yeah, I think that answered part of your question.

Carl Widger: 56:20

And then I went off on one, yeah, no, no, but it's a great answer. Yeah. Brilliant answer. And it sounds like it's kind of, even if you didn't know it yourself, it's like it's a mission that you're on to try and educate more people, to try and get more people into finance and get to understand it a little bit more. Yeah. So look, I think it's a great story. Like, when did you, you started off with the power planning first, and then was it just like that? The others became kind of, well, these go hand in gloves. So why don't I do this? And why don't you do that, but, but, but at the same time, while they're hand in glove, they're they're also very different. So like, you have to set up separate divisions, I guess, and bring more people on. And that brings complexity. How did you, how did you cope with all of that? Because we are always talking about that, because Andy and Nick are probably, you know, the solos and myself and Alan are, are grappling with, trying to have the different divisions and all of that kind of stuff. How you, how do you find that now? But how did you find it as you were growing

Unknown: 57:20

so, I made, I made it probably 10 times harder than it needed to be. So when we all got up in parasols and the power planning business, that was 2000 and keeps it fun, parasols was 2009 so then that was fine, and it was growing, and one of the things that we'd launched was a grad scheme, and because it got to the point where I was kind of riding this wave of everybody, realizing how much they need paraplanners. Everybody really being open into outsourcing, which was absolutely great from a demand perspective, but supply was just impossible. Finding para planners up in Darlington, obviously, where we were before covid, you know, we weren't really kind of having them scattered around the country. So we launched a graduate scheme, which we still run. Our two new graduates start today. Actually, I managed to get the domain the grad scheme.co.uk, which was essential, because nobody was coming out of uni and Googling paraplanning grad schemes, but they were googling grad schemes. And then we were coming up top, and then we just did this whole website, and was all around, like, being a financial hero. And then it was, you know, like, WTF as a paraplanner, and just kind of really trying to get people thinking, people thinking, Oh, well, I don't actually know what parapanel is, but this company looks fun and the nearby and, you know, I'll kind of get in that way. So then the business was growing, and it was doing great. And then in 2016 I went off on maternity. So I had my little boy. And you know, you'll know with kids like, when the first born, they actually don't do anything. You just let there asleep all day. So I was thinking, Okay, what's the business's challenges in parasol like, what? What can I kind of fix? And one of the biggest frustrations that we had was external compliance providers. They drove me absolutely bonkers, like, we do a great job. The advisor was happy, the client was happy. And then six months later, Compliance would come in and just rip a file apart for, you know, for their fee. And so I thought about a launch compliance that's fine, but then what we actually did was pulled our clients at the time and said, What do you think about a compliance service from us? And they said, theoretically, yes, we like your kind of philosophy in the way that you approach things. However, I wouldn't want to think there was a risk that my paraplanner was also going to be my file checker and the mark of the run homework. And, you know, it's I need that kind of separation. So I actually launched apricity. And I also thought, actually at this time, it's 2016 Why is no one in compliance using any technology? Any technology? Why is it all spreadsheets and files? I know we'll build a new company with a whole new piece of technology while I'm on maternity leave and then super day. I thought it would take like three or four months. It took like 1410, times the cost. But it did. It did. It needed to do in the sense of going, it's a proper company. It's separate from parasols. Like, yes, it's the same kind of ethos and same, you know, crazy person driving it, but actually you can use it as a standalone you can use parasols, or you can use it too. So I think what I then basically the same thing happened with the training side, which was the art of finance, which then ultimately they've all got merged back in together, which is why I was saying I did it the hard way. The philosophy was right initially to kind of have that separation, and because they're still small businesses and maybe weren't as well known and weren't as well established, just trying to do it as a division wouldn't have worked. So it's kind of it was clunky. It got to the point where I had four separate companies, three pieces of tech, you know, four sets of accounts, brands, four separate teams and but ultimately, all the same clients. So the whole restructure happened to make it a little bit easier for everyone.

Andy Hart: 1:00:54

Brilliant, wow. Brilliant, Hi, Kathy. I'm gonna jump in with a question. I feel you're paying with multiple brands. My God, I think we've known each other for 16 years. Kathy, I think we met in 2009 in in Moorgate. So a lots happened with our our businesses and lives in those in those years. But it's, it's insanely impressive what you've created, and you've got an awesome place in Darlington with loads of people doing some awesome stuff. You've told us all about your history, the past. My question is about the future. What do you see the big challenges ahead? What the big moves for Verve going forward?

Unknown: 1:01:32

Well, firstly, I'm a little bit alarmed, because I do know when you mean Andy in 2009 in mortgage. And was it when we had that photo shoot, and I've got that red shirt or in like, Ginger bobbed hair, and it's just absolutely, I'm, like, about 15 years older then than I do now. That was it. That was it. So, yeah, future, um, I guess there's a couple of things. So I think at the minute, for me, there's kind of two core areas. There's the foundation. So the future, the foundation very much exists to continue to kind of break down some of the frustrations and challenges in financial services independent of anything commercial. So we've got, well under sponsored the incubator. We've got amazing companies like nucleus that sponsor our programs that bring new people into finance as well. So the the different challenges we hear around right? You know, nobody chooses finance as a career, or it's really hard to start a new business, or there's education gaps. The Foundation exists to help tackle all of those, and it's nothing all to do with nucleus is revenue verbs, revenue, anything like that. So it's doing amazing. The support we've had has been amazing. I see that going much, much bigger next year. I feel like, again, it's been kind of proven. I think people can kind of see the impact that it's having. We've got, you know, hundreds of new businesses and new people that have come into finance because of it. So it's on the foundation more more more and more of what we were doing. Um, Verve side, I there's two things. Again, the the main thing with the minute is the restructure and the new tech to underpin it meant that we've got this ability now to just support advice firms as much or as little as they need. Again, it comes from being a business owner flipping hate having to sign up to two year contract, three year contracts, you know, terms business with 10 different people, all these different direct debits going out. You just don't know where things are. So the whole kind of philosophy with verve is, you've got single tech, you know, massive team, but they're all specialists in their own areas. And as an advice firm, you just say, right, I'm going to sign up to some compliance. I need it for a couple of months, or I'll bolt on some file checks or any prayer planning for a couple of months, but then you down it back down if you don't need it. And I think that ability to go to a single place and get the support your business needs is like it's the thing that I would want for my business. If I could get the my HR support and my county support, my legal support, all in one piece of tech and I can just activate it when I need it, it would make it so much easier. So there's loads more we can do there. There's additional services we keep adding in. Some of them are by yours. Some of them are kind of third party ones where HR being an example, like small advice firms need HR support. If they get it through our like Dexter, our system, they're using a specialist HR company. It's not vertiv, but we've trained them to say, from a HR perspective, this is like the FCA overlay. This is what regulatory references mean. This is how you know you should be doing contracts, for example. So yeah, building that out, I think building more of that art, and just pointing out a lot of the crappy old approach to services that I think advice firms have had to put up with for years and years, and very soap boxy, but just people, you know, the complaint and the frustrated about the cost of advice, the cost of compliance impacting on the cost of advice. But I think the cost of compliance is very it can be very flexible, and I think it's been driven up by compliance providers. Not even wanting to try and help find a way to kind of make it a lot, a lot easier for advice firms.

Nick Lincoln: 1:05:06

That's a great, great, great, great response.

Carl Widger: 1:05:08

Yeah, that's, yeah, you've so much going on there. It's, it's, it's inspiring, yeah, but it's, it's, but I'm going to ask you a question too, like, Where does the growth of this business? Because if you if you nail so obviously, if you're talking about the tech right, AI is front and center of that, and I'm sure you're all over that. So if you nail the tech, you know you can go to other jurisdictions. And I'm just thinking about the market I operate in. Your service is needed in Ireland, and it's leaders in every other country, because there's very few, as far as I'm aware, people, you know, this is exactly what we're talking about. And I have spoken about this on this podcast, about bringing all the services as close together as possible. Well, you're bringing them, you're squeezing them into one place, so we can kind of take off a menu. We'll have that, we'll have that, and we'll have that, but because we're a smaller firm, we don't need that, or we're a bigger firm, and we have that ourselves, or whatever. So we can, we can choose from it. So like, have, have you big growth plans, and I think you should, if you don't, and I think, like, you know, dream big on this, because I think it's, it's you obviously, your your your enthusiasm and your passion for what you do comes across in spades. So you should drive this thing on. This is needed. This service is needed. I'm always talking about this, and it doesn't exist in

Unknown: 1:06:34

Ireland, I tell you, thank you. Oh, that's really lovely. So how I think I agree. I think there's I think it is needed, and I think it takes a bit of time for kind of businesses to get used to working in a different way. I think there's obviously always going to be some pushback, like, maybe they still don't want so many different services in one area. Maybe there's like, spreading the risk of it being kind of across different providers. I also think, because I can't, I can't just kind of do more of the same. I'm just not wired that way. It's kind of how I've ended up where I am. And I still think that there's a different way entirely that financial advice and support and the ability to help firms grow and see more clients. I think there's a whole different way that can be that doesn't yet exist, that maybe should exist. And I think it's kind of somewhere in between. At the minute, as an advice firm, you've got the option of going directly authorized, you've got all the risk it carries, you've got all the worry. You've got 8 million decisions to make before you can even, you know, begin to see a single clients. Or if you go down the network route, you go to it thinking maybe, you know, it's going to get rid of all this kind of compliance worry. Actually, they're going to make my life really easy. But in doing so, you give up some of your control, and you give up some of the kind of flexibility and the creativity. So I think there's should be a middle ground, and I have been working on a middle ground, but I can't announce too much about that middle ground yet, but I think you'd take the concept of what we're doing at first and all these different services, and then go, actually, how do you make it even simpler? How do you make it so, as an advice for him, you just go in. Got that monthly fee. It covers absolutely everything. Ultimately, I'm still directly authorized, but somebody, or, you know, an entire company over here, has just taken all of my worries away from me, I think, is where I'd like it to be.

Carl Widger: 1:08:23

So there's there's big news coming. Big plans are for to drive it on and do it better, do it differently.

Alan Smith: 1:08:29

Always supposed to, suffice to say, Kathy's ambitious, and if and when they decide to open up in Ireland, call you'll be the first person. She calls you a contract. She definitely stood to sign up. Yeah, can I just ask you, just for a bit of a little bit of clarification, because you've got so much going on, so in my mind, I'm just trying to know you've got the compliance business and the power planning business and what have you, and you've talked about the foundation of which, if I understand, the incubator is a part of, but not necessarily all of it. So expand a little bit, if you don't mind, on what the foundation actually is and what it does.

Unknown: 1:09:11

So yeah, the foundation is the business, and within it there's a number of initiatives. So the advisor incubator is one of those initiatives. And we, yeah, that's everything that kind of described so far to a lot of small supporting new, independent advice firms. There's another initiative within it, which is called We Are Change. So that's the one where, again, we've received funding. And what we do is go out and say to people, have you ever wanted a career in finance? Or have you not, maybe considered finance, but you're looking for a new career? Here's kind of a foot in the door. And what we do is we use that funding to pay for their CII membership and their exams and their textbooks, and then we give them training, and we give them mentoring and coaching, and we help find them a job. So that, again, is kind of, you know, often people it's career changes, it's PR changes. It's people who've. I wanted to get into finance, but couldn't take a step back from the day job. Maybe they've already got kids. Maybe they just couldn't afford the studying alongside it. But again, it was that vicious circle of hearing people saying in finance, people saying, Nobody chooses career in finance. We're not getting enough people in but then actually me talking to people who are saying, I really want to come into finance, but nobody will give me a job because I haven't got any experience or a qualification. And it's just, you know, it was just making me bang my head against a brick wall. So again, I mean, we're literally, we're sifting through the now we're launching another two intakes of that this year of that program. And when I last looked last week, there was something like, we've got 10 slots on the next intake, and there's something like, I want to say, like, 204 205 applicants that are in for it genuinely. When people say they are, they want to just, I know it's Yeah, so that Yeah. Basically, the more we can kind of so basically, within the foundation, the more we fundraise, the more initiatives we can put on. And yeah, and yeah, we've done other stuff around, like going out to schools and going out to centers to kind of help do some more financial education, but they're the two core initiatives within the foundation.

Alan Smith: 1:11:10

That's brilliant, because we do, and I certainly have had quite a few contacts of the last couple of years for exactly that career changes, people of actually quite different ages. Some are still early stage career, but they've just realized that whatever they're doing isn't really for them, and they might have a sort of personal interest in finance and think and want to explore, or people even older, they've almost had a, you know, successful career for 10 or 20 years, and they are looking to do something differently. But it's always very, very difficult to find that that inroad, where do I even get started? Where do I so that's, that's a fabulous initiative. I think that you've got there as well, that you've got a lot going on, I have to say, a lot, yeah, for a place, great stuff, great stuff.

Nick Lincoln: 1:11:49

And, I mean, we've talked about it. Kathy, we all know the problem. You know, in the olden days, it was the insurance companies were the conduit, how you got into financial services. I mean, you stumbled into it, didn't you? We all kind of stumbled into it through insurance companies. And then you make the, make the jump to the the advisor side of things. Well, those days are gone now. So what you're doing is, is amazing work that I'm conscious of time. I know you're a very busy CEO, but you haven't, you don't outsource the school run. You've got to do the school run in seven minutes to your credit. So a couple of questions. One of them's a lame one is a half body. You can easily back back. But the first question, if there was, if you had, if you had a magic wand. What would be the one thing you would change in this thing of ours, in this world of financial services, what's the one thing you think you know? What this this could be changed for the better.

Unknown: 1:12:31

What would I change with a magic wand? I would change businesses perception of compliance. I feel like it's just like this big rhetorical, theoretical beast, and sometimes the kind of the support that I think a decent compliance, internal provider, external provider, whatever it might be, I think, to have somebody that just helps your business navigate everything, and in doing so, stick within the FCA rules, and doing so protect client, but ultimately help you like just help you run your business. I think it's such a positive thing, but trying to shift people's mindsets from and just hating on compliance and thinking it's the worst thing. I think it's it's self defeating.

Nick Lincoln: 1:13:15

It's a great answer my second My second question is a much easier one for you to answer. What's the best way for people to get in contact with you.

Unknown: 1:13:26

Oh, that is an easy one. Um, I would say my email. So it's just Cathy, C, here, C, A, T, H, I after we have earth.co.uk, okay,

Nick Lincoln: 1:13:34

that's love, because I'm sure they're going to be, they're going to be Trappists listening to this, who are just thinking, you know What? What? What Kathy Harrison has just spoken about, in the various different things you offer, there's going to be some interest. And I hope you do get the TRAPPIST on board, Kathy, you're you're with us for maybe five minutes at most, with the next section of the show is where we answer a Trappist question. And the TRAPPIST question in the in the on the slate, it's quite opposite, given you're on the show today. So can you hang around for five more minutes while we do the TRAPPIST question? Absolutely. Okay, great stuff. So, and I know the TRAPPIST question is on the slate and it's the next thing up, because I can see postie is at the front door. She's dragged the bulging sack of TRAPPIST questions, and this is only answer one. If you want to leave a question for a trap pack to answer and our guests, then please do click on the link in the so called show notes, and also on the pinned tweet on X or the pinned X on tweet. We will get to your questions. We're working through them. This question is from Lee Denham, Lee spell L, E, E, which I guess is the male spelling of Lee, so I'm assuming it's a chap his question, though, Kathy, this is why it is opposite. Could we have a show dedicated to the girls, if one hasn't been done already, there are many excellent advisors in the industry of the fairer sex who I would respectfully observe face a different set of challenges to those of the traditional stereotype of the 50 something male. What's wrong with the 50 something male? It would be good to hear their perspective on these challenges and what the whole industry can do to help them become as. Settle as successful as they deserve to be. So Kathy, is there an issue? Okay, we know. We know that females are underrepresented in the advice sector quite massively. Do you think that's an issue? And what do you think we as a profession could be doing to encourage it further?

Unknown: 1:15:21

I i on the spot stuff booked in after school club, shouldn't I do? You know, again, I think, I think sometimes there's kind of headlines. I think there's a lot of rhetoric in the industry. We just had our conference two weeks ago, and twice I was stopped on the day by people saying to me, oh, like, there's so many women here. I didn't realize there was, like, this many women in terms of, like, the split at um, conference. And I know Andy used to work with Tina, and she used to always say, um, have everything about Finance Conference was that there was never a queue for the ladies bathrooms. And actually, I was two weeks ago, like there was a queue. It was really annoying. So I think I do think there is, I think it's getting better. I think it ties into the whole bigger piece of, how do you get the kind of independent advice firms? How do you get this kind of broader range of people running advice businesses? Because that's going to attract a broader range of people to go and get financial advice who maybe previously wouldn't have thought it was for them. And again, I think it's just again, somebody had said to me, so we've got Darren on our leadership team now, and he's our first man on the leadership team. So in 16 years, it's been all female leadership team from parasol right the way through to verve. And suppose we'll have to let a guy in, you know, be sexist and kind of make it, make that change. And somebody said to me, like, you know, was that kind of by design, that you ended up with all women on your leadership team, and it absolutely wasn't, but it works in the same way that it does the other way around, in the sense of, I was already there running it as a female. So then women are more likely to apply to my company, and then they're really experienced, when they're amazing, and then they get, you know, elevated up. Elevated up in the same way that it goes the other way around. If you just see companies or men, you're going to naturally see a higher proportion of men that apply to those roles. So I just think it's always about that kind of, you know, being the person who will stick your head above the parapet a little bit. I kind of show that there are roles for women in finance being open to talk to them all the time. But it is. It's definitely getting better. I just think the horn of finance is just kind of getting much more inclusive than ever used to be.

Andy Hart: 1:17:30

Wow, great. Yeah, just, I'll just chip in. We're open to discuss any topics that are, you know, relevant to this mighty profession. If there's any female advisors listening that think there are unique challenges that female advisors face, then please do get in contact, and we'll hopefully get you on the show one day. So yeah, that's my two pence.

Nick Lincoln: 1:17:51

Nicholas, I have nothing further to add, really. I, you know, my views about this kind of I think some professions are just leaning towards different care sexes that, you know, the teaching profession is 95% female, okay? And the advice profession, you don't want it to be equal 5050, because that's forced then, and that's, that's not, that's, that's not right. But definitely we need to have more female I think we need to have the health of the profession to appeal to appeal to female clients. We need to have more female advisors. And I Yeah, whether we should have a show about it, I'm not too sure about and here's why I get a little bit abrasive Cathy. Don't take this wrong way. Something stopping female advisors launching their own bloody podcast. You know, crack on.

Alan Smith: 1:18:36

So that'd be great. Female advisors just chewing the fat. I think that'd be wonderful. Actually, I'd tune into that. That'd be good.

Unknown: 1:18:46

I think there's, sorry, yeah, I think there's, like, a few different things there which I would say, like, I absolutely agree. Nick, I think some, some professions naturally lean towards particular genders. I think it's kind of, it's thinking about why that is, or what it is. So for teachers, obviously, historically, women were very much considered the caretakers. And that leads itself to the teaching profession. I think finance historically was considered very salesy, and then that was what was very naturally male. I think actually, if you look at finances, it is now and when it's done properly. I don't think the skill sets needed naturally leaning with like, I think any kind of empathetic support person can be really good financial advisor. So I think the MIS the misbalance at the minute, is an overhang from what used to be a very different industry that we all worked in to the one that we're in now. Yeah.

Nick Lincoln: 1:19:33

So your example of that aren't as well, of course, because, you know, you you had all these ideas while you were, you know, you just given birth to your boy, kind of thing, you know. And with the tech now, you know, it can be a, it can be a lifestyle business. And you can build a, you know, if you're a busy mom or whatever, you know, you can build, you can build a business around it, using the tech. It's not that you've got to be clocking in at nine and leaving at five kind of thing. So it's different, different world. But the sales point is, there it was. It used to be quite an abrasive, aggressive world. It was. Sales targets. It was very machismo, you know, it was getting that going on, that winning that vacation, you know, it was, it was Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, you know, who's gonna win the steak knives this, this month, kind of thing. And it's not that anymore.

Carl Widger: 1:20:12

So that's probably, yeah, and Nick, if I just just to kind of wrap this up, like, I mean, I think that if you're looking to build a team, like Alan has or like Metis, it, it's, it is really important to get some level of balance in there, because we struggled, and it's funny, when we were kind of on the on our growth trajectory early on, we did struggle to recruit women, even though we really were trying to recruit them, and we couldn't. And something just felt a little bit off. So now we have a better balance. It's not perfect, but we do have a much, much better balance. And I would say our culture is much better off as a result, because you do need to have that kind of balance. And males and females, they do bring different things to the party. And I think, you know, if you're, if you're going for a any kind of a team environment, just be very careful with it, because we were kind of heading down the Wolf of Wall Street for a while there, and it wasn't we were, and when I've spoken about it with you guys before, it just it felt all It felt a bit ick, yeah. So I think the balance is really, really important. And, you know,

Unknown: 1:21:24

look, I know we

Carl Widger: 1:21:29

do get a bit of grief to the four boys, and we tend to talk about kind of boys things and all that. We can't help that that is what it is. So I just that's the bit of criticism I don't think we should we deserve because it is what it is. But do I believe there should be balance in teams? No matter what industry or profession you're in? I Okay, 100%

Nick Lincoln: 1:21:50

of it. Great stuff. Ultra tyre bow on this. I've

Andy Hart: 1:21:53

got nothing to say, Nick, because my hands still up. Sorry, mate.

Nick Lincoln: 1:21:57

I think, I think I think he's got to go. Kathy. Kathy, we are literally five minutes from the close.

Andy Hart: 1:22:03

So do you want to stick with

Unknown: 1:22:10

us for the clothes ride my son's scooter? I am really quite No. That's great. Thanks so much. Soon, thanks.

Andy Hart: 1:22:26

Classic Lincoln not reading the room as always.

Nick Lincoln: 1:22:31

Lincoln asking

Andy Hart: 1:22:33

another five minutes if you'd like to stay on another five minutes like I've just been very polite.

Nick Lincoln: 1:22:40

You don't have culture

Carl Widger: 1:22:44

corner anyway. Wasn't Kathy amazing?

Alan Smith: 1:22:47

Like, yeah, she's amazing. She's great. She's a she's a force of nature, of

Carl Widger: 1:22:51

energy and a burst of inspiration. That was class, very good. Fair play.

Nick Lincoln: 1:22:54

Yeah, good. Okay, let's move on to culture corner

Carl Widger: 1:23:02

in a rec excellence, by Jim Murphy. I read the notes our chairman Tom Tierney, from time to time recommends books for me to read. And I always go, Hmm, there's a reason he's doing that. So this one is brilliant, right? It's about, uh, it's, it's by a guy. I think the book is out a good while, but it was made very famous when a wide receiver in the NFL was who was very famous, apparently, was seen reading this book during the game. So he was trying to, kind of coach his brain during the game. So this one kind of got propelled, whereas before, it wasn't that well known, it's he's kind of, he talks about mastering your thoughts and detaching from outcomes. So you know, doing your systems, doing your processes, and then living with purpose. But the book is, is, is has those kind of broad three, three themes, but done through examples of leaders you might know are sports people that you might know. So I love that kind of you know, saying, and this is what happened this famous person, and you may or may not know a lot of them, but really well written. I loved it, and I would recommend it to everybody on a business journey of any description. I thought it was brilliant. Did you read it? Carlo, listen, I didn't read it because I can't read. I'm trying to read a book at the moment. I'm just back from a few days in Madeira, and I was on the plane trying to read a book, going, I just, what is wrong with me? Like, I don't I don't concentrate for it. I cannot do it. I cannot

Alan Smith: 1:24:36

concentrate. But you listen, you listen, yeah, and audible, yeah, I'm

Nick Lincoln: 1:24:42

back to reading rather than listening. I'd say, Yeah, cancel through

Alan Smith: 1:24:47

these things. Okay, all right, that's good. Thank you. Watch. I'm next. I'm next, I'm next. I want to talk about someone called Elon Musk. You may have heard of him. Carl, you're a big fan. I. He comes in for some stick. But oh my god, that, that guy, I will state, is my, in my opinion, he's the greatest entrepreneur ever to have lived in history. Ever a mile. He's just getting started. Yeah. I mean, so and the two things, I might have thought that anyway, but there's and so when I see things, new interviews, and what have you I tune into them. There was one we've often mentioned on this pod in the past, the all in podcast all in that just had their summit. Actually, we should take a few ideas and tips for our track live in terms of how they've how they've done it, but they just all get together all in podcast summit two or three days in California last week, and interviewed Elon, and it's just mind blowing what he's doing. They're asking him everything that's going on at SpaceX, what's happening at Tesla, what's the name of his robot company? Forgotten that now it's within Tesla. What is new, but the stuff they're doing with these kind of humanoid robots that everywhere the next couple of years, they're inside Tesla, inside Tesla, and then all the other stuff. And he's just talking about it matter of factly, because, oh yeah, there's that, and there's that, and there's that, and, and, you know, the difficulty of making a, you know, a human hand robot, versus putting someone on Mars and into intergalactic travel. It's just a mind blowing conversation about 40 minutes long. And I watched that just a couple of days after listening to a podcast that we've Andy listens to called founders. Founders podcast is a guy who just who reads books, and he reads a lot of books, then he reads out effectively, his summaries of the books. He's done Elon a couple of times before, but this is a new version of the one he's done for Elon. And it's really just about Elon's operating system, how he deal, I mean, how the hell you can manage six or eight different global, multi billion dollar businesses, all doing revolutionary things all at the same time, whilst tweeting about 26 times a day as well. So it sort of unpacks all his sort of day to day, how he lives, how he operates, how he engages with staff, people, colleagues and so on. It's mind blowing. I listened to, as I say, both of them in the space of a few days. And I was, I was just, I was very inspired. Shall we put it that way? If you could do, if you could live your life, 0.01% of what Elon does, you'd be quite successful. But this is my point

Carl Widger: 1:27:07

about him, right? I don't, I don't argue that he's the greatest entrepreneur ever and will be seen. Probably history will take out some of the dark side and it'll just go he achieved this, this and this, because that was, that's what history does. I just number one, I can't get inspired by him, because he's an absolute freak, like he does none of us can operate I freak in a good way, in terms of the amount that he achieves on in a 24 hour period for any of us to try and emulate that, I think is pretty bloody pointless.

Andy Hart: 1:27:39

And then, and he's still popping out kids all the time, I wonder. Yeah, it's just, it's a wonder,

Carl Widger: 1:27:45

yeah, but I just can't, I just the values,

Alan Smith: 1:27:50

are you? Carl, that's right. No, he'll be disappointed, you know,

Andy Hart: 1:27:53

disappointed, but still we love him,

Carl Widger: 1:27:56

yeah? But I think Be careful who your heroes are.

Nick Lincoln: 1:28:00

Okay, my culture corner is also actually on the all import. We haven't talked about it, and it's not really, it's not nothing to do with us, this thing of ours. But the assassination, the murder of Charlie Kirk, pretty seismic event. Over the last couple of weeks. I'm still trying to process it. I know you, you've taken time on this as well, Alan, and it's just a shocking thing. And the all in pod, where they talk about the assassination of Charlie Kirk, given that all four of the all in pod, even sacks were once Democrats, liberal tech bro, Silicon Valley, classic Democrats. And this, this episode is half you know that it's the first 40 minutes of the lot, the last all in podcast. They talk about it. It gets quite emotional. Even Calacanis talks some sense, and so forth. But the very reason, as ever, Chamath Polly put the kettle on is very insightful. The guy, the guy had, gives his view on what's going on in America. And you might think, Well, why does that matter? What it does matter? Because what happens over there tends to happen over here. Okay, we're downstream of some of the nonsense that goes on over there. And I think we'll look back. I think we'll all even people that aren't politically motivated or interested, they're going to remember when this, when, when that, when that, when that young, young father and husband was, was, was shot in front of his family. And I think it hopefully, hopefully, it'll be a tipping point and won't see a further descent into anarchy. I don't know which way it's going to pan out, but I would give even if you're not fan of the audience podcast, I know, you know Carl, you're not as in love with it as you once were, by a lot, by by a big I would listen to that section of the of the show when they talk about the Charlie cook thing, because

Carl Widger: 1:29:22

I have, I have, and imagine if you just dropped your daughter off a week before for her four year compartment on her course, college scholarship adventure. It's worrying, very worrying. Yeah, well, yeah, of

Nick Lincoln: 1:29:39

course, of course. Okay, and ultra Uber users show up.

Alan Smith: 1:29:47

Let's talk about IKEA wardrobes or

Andy Hart: 1:29:51

something. Found recommendation to close the show, if anyone's a serious Uber user and Uber Eats user, they do a membership program called Uber one. It will. Save some people that listen to this 1000, hundreds of pounds a year, definitely check it out. It's a decent membership scheme. That's it over to you. Nicholas X

Carl Widger: 1:30:08

reward card system that you have in your supermarket, like something like that.

Andy Hart: 1:30:13

It's a bit above you call it's app

Nick Lincoln: 1:30:19

based everybody we made it through to the end of episode 80. Thanks as ever, dear TRAPPIST for your time. Another episode slides down the U bend of Father Time. Please do leave a review, as Ultra said at the start the show about three hours ago, please reviews. And we help the algorithm. If you keep giving reviews, we keep going up the podcast visibility things, and we're just more prominent. And it also helps us, because we've got massively because we've got massive egos, as you might have guessed, and we're all thin skinned and we're vain, and we need to hear that we're doing good stuff for you. So until the next time, it's adios from the Track Pack, we'll see on the other side. Take care out there. And yeah, that was a good that was a good show today. Enjoyed that. Thank you.

Unknown: 1:30:58

All right, bye, bye, bye. Up, goodbye.

Andy Hart: 1:31:07

I think there may be a delay thing for Apple users, is it?