TRAP: The Real Adviser Podcast
Four business-owning entrepreneurial knuckleheads chew the fat on the sometimes murky, always quirky, world of UK and Irish personal finance.
TRAP: The Real Adviser Podcast
104 - Finish With A Flourish
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In this latest pile of TRAP, the Trap Pack discuss
- Topical Titbits
- Meat and Potatoes: “Finish With A Flourish”
- TRAPist question from beloved TRAPist Patrick Duggan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-duggan-06a61719/
- Culture Corner
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Welcome to the Real Advisor Podcast, TRAP TRAP. Please follow us and join in the conversation on Twitter at Advisor Podcast where you can suggest ideas and themes you'd like the trap team to discuss. Also remember to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a six out of five star review on iTunes. Doing all this really, really helps us, which means we can do more to help you. Now let's head over to the studio for the latest pile of trap.
SPEAKER_03Yes indeed, dear trappers. Welcome back to what many people are calling episode 104th, the Ennie Quattro of the Real Advisor Podcast T-R-A-P Trap. My name is indeed Lick Lincoln, and joining me, the band's back together. Joining me once more in the digital studio of Doom are the three other horsemen of the apocalypse. Andy Ultra Heart in a secret location. Alan the storyteller Smith in Kilburn South. And Carl the voice Delavochi Widger in very lush, probably South West Ireland or environs. Gentlemen, welcome back to Episode 104. We have a show pack. Penny's cat has started already. That's a good start. We have a show pack full of absolutely nothing. So let's get it unpacked straight away with another high-energy review read. Read out by my very good friend, the Right Honourable Mr. Andrew Sein Hart. Yeah, it's great to be back.
SPEAKER_04Big shout out to Keith Button for stepping in, uh, super sub. He did very well. Um so that was all good. Right, onwards to the review. Uh, Adrian Pope, five stars on Apple Podcasts, six or even seven stars. Well done on a hundred episodes. After listening to the latest one, I went back and listened to episode one just to see how well you have progressed. My one observation is I'm disappointed that you no longer refer to Carl as Wild West Widger. Keep going. You are badly needed, honest voice in this thing of ours. And whilst I may not always agree with what's said, I love you say it as it is. I've been in this industry for 38 years now and wish this podcast had been around in my formative years. New advisors are fools if they don't listen to you religiously. Back to you, Nicholas. Can we bring back Wild West Witch?
SPEAKER_01You cannot. In fact, we had a fairly significant argument about that where I threw the toys out of the prime. I do recall.
SPEAKER_03There wasn't Toy Throne, but we took we took it in good stead, and we did it. We did it indeed. Thank you very much, Adrian Pope. The only English Pope was Adrian Brakespear, um, back in the 12th century, and he lived in Nabas Langley up the road where I grew up, and there are three roads called Adrian Road, Pope's Road, and Brakespear Road. There you go. There's your little tidbit of knowledge for the next dinner party when you're sat next to somebody's really boring and you want to get that conversation on a sexy sizzle of a level. Okay, let's start unpacking episode 104. That was a great review, by the way. Thank you, Adrian. So let's put a timestamp on 104, rather. So, as ever, just to let you Trappists know, because I know you're all itching to go on this Agony Fest that we've somehow signed up for. Vanguard Tough Mudder, Tough Mudder, on Friday, the 18th of September. Um, link in the so-called show notes. Do sign up. You can sign up as an individual and and or as a team. Certainly, myself and um Storyteller are going to be there. Carl is gonna be there, and he's got some weak excuse about being on a different continent. Um, but we'll take that in good in good faith. So do sign up for that. And what other stuff are we doing in the world of trap carl? Because our empire is burgeoning.
SPEAKER_01It I wouldn't say that, but uh we do, however, we do have trap forum, which is uh picking up a pace nicely. Uh, there's lots of interaction from various people. So uh thank you to everybody who is engaging in that. Um it is uh going really well, but we'd love people to uh sign in and uh get involved. Andrew, you're making hand signals. It's uh very disconcerting whilst I'm talking. Is there something you'd like to say, Andy, before I it's like a little bit of a crackle. Sorry. Can you hear that new?
SPEAKER_03No, sorry, it's Penny's pushes, she's having her food from her food bowl and it's clattering. She'll be gone in a second. Is that what it is? It sounds like static.
SPEAKER_01Sounds like static.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay, let's move on.
SPEAKER_01Sorry. It's not me, so uh okay. The other thing I would like to say is uh we've had this uh grand idea of perhaps doing a trap retreat, and I'm actually in the middle of checking all of that out, and we um perhaps will have some details to share, but because this is trap, it won't be fast, so bear with us. Um, and the reason I'm bringing that up is uh I'm getting, and I know you guys as well are getting lots of uh messages from interested uh trappists who are looking maybe to um have some time with us or um uh just uh talk you know about various stuff offline. Um and look, whilst we would love to do that, well, we're all running fairly busy businesses and also we're all running very busy lives. And look, we just don't have the wherewithal to do that. So look, stand by and uh maybe we'll have some news on a trap retreat at some stage, and you would get obviously um FaceTime for a few days at that with all of the trap pack. But um, failing that actually materializing, and I'm not promising anything, um, I'd say the trap forum is a really, really great place to uh get involved and um ask your questions because not only will we be able to uh engage with you on the Trap Forum, loads and loads of other really well-heeled advisors will also be able to engage with you there. So um, so look, uh just to mention that today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just wanted to do a brief follow-up to that. Um, I must admit this was Carl's idea. Uh so blame him if it all goes wrong. But the idea of doing, I don't know, you call it a retreat, an off-site, going away when there's enough uh time and space. That's the uh the one thing most of us haven't got a lot of. But when you've got a dedicated, you know, two or even three days getting together and talking about the issues uh of the day, the the challenges, the opportunities, and what have you, with a like-minded group of uh, you know, fellow trappists and people who are all uh very you know professional and intentional and ambitious and all those things. I I think you know the uh the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. If you get the right group of people in the room, you know, I've certainly been on that sort of thing in the past in my career and I've found a lot of benefit from it. I think at this stage, Carl, it's fair to say um we're just testing is there any appetite for this? You're right, we all get a fair amount of inbound and we get a lot of requests for look, can I buy can I meet for a coffee, can I buy you lunch, can I do this and that? And we're as you say, we'd love to do all these things, but the reality is uh time precludes it. But if we're serious about this and we and everyone who participates want to set set aside a couple of days, maybe go uh abroad, maybe go over to wherever Spain or Portugal or someone have a couple of days in the half decent hotel and really thrash out some of these important things. I think uh I think it could be good. So if people are interested, then you know reach out and sort of suggest, you know, without any commitment to this stage, that that could be something subject to timing, price, etc., um, if you were going to be interested. I think it's no more than probably about a dozen people, to be realistic. Not too many more than that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe maybe maybe a little bit more than that. We did we did um we did do a shout-out on this before, and we probably got eight, nine, maybe even ten people saying I'm interested without them knowing prices or agendas or anything like that. Look, the reason I'm passionate about doing something like this is I have spoken about the Munster High Performance Leadership course that I went on uh all those years back. It transformed transformed not only my professional life, it also transformed my personal life. And I think having the um having the right people um in a place whereby everyone has chosen to invest money to go away and make themselves better, I think it's unbelievably powerful. And I am aware of um another group who's done this recently and and the feedback from it was was really, really good. So look, um let's investigate it. Obviously, um what we'll have to come with is well, here's how much it's gonna cost, uh, here's what it's broadly speaking gonna look like. Are you interested? And at that stage, then we'll get much more serious about it. I think I'm probably about two months away from from uh having those kind of details, but uh hopefully uh this side of Christmas anyway, we'll have the details uh ready to share with people.
SPEAKER_04And we're looking to do it later on in 2027, aren't we? We're looking to do it September, October sort of time. Yeah, so that's the rough dates, but obviously we'll uh we'll get uh further details to you. Uh it does make me laugh at the time.
SPEAKER_03Mark out September and October in your diaries. Um, just for us on the chance that it may happen. Um, right, moving forward, uh Ultra. This is probably gonna be bad news if you value your property.
SPEAKER_04It does make me laugh of uh thinking about Alan on his silent retreat. Uh just can't uh that's the the gift that keeps on giving that one. Uh okay, so this is uh property related. So we've spoken about this quite a bit. Uh I have many clients at the moment trying to sell properties and can't. Lots of price uh prices being reduced. It's definitely a buyer's market. We've spoken about the situation with flats in London. Um, anyway, it's uh we could do a little bit of a pop quiz. Uh, the UK's most and least affordable places to buy, um, and it's got basically the full breakdown. If you're into sort of property data, it's worth clicking the link. Um, it's basically at the moment across the UK, price to earnings ratio in terms of income versus uh the prices of average houses is 6.9 times. Uh the most affordable area is uh Scotland, various places in Scotland. The most expensive area is obviously London. Um, and it's basically the north size of the. You did, Ali. You did, you did. Uh, and talking about that, so uh Inverclyde is the cheapest place to buy, 3.1 times price ratio, and the most expensive is obviously Kensington and Chelsea. The price to earnings ratio in Kensington and Chelsea is 23.9. The medium salary is 52k, and an average house there is 1.256 million. Um, yeah, just a bit of uh, as I say, property data if you're into that sort of stuff. So uh yeah, check it out in the link.
SPEAKER_02I've seen there's there's been a lot of this stuff. I think there's there's an increasing amount of data, I think, now becoming available. There's a lot of I've seen a lot of stuff written online recently. And and I I've just got to come back to the uh same old thing. If you were talking about the stock market over the last three or five years, you wouldn't get too head up, but either the the returns were really good or the returns are really bad. It tends to be a lifetime thing. If you look at property over, let's say, two decades, 20 years, the data confirms that it broadly keeps pace with inflation on average. So some is a bit more than inflation, some is a bit less, depending on the part of the country. It's it's you know, the law is the law of supply and demand. There is a finite uh number of properties. We know we've got a huge shortage of properties in this country. And yeah, the last few years maybe prices got ahead of themselves. Uh there's a lot of issues around leaseholds, uh especially in and around London. Right now, it can be a challenge. Leaseholds can be very expensive. So, yeah, over the last few years, and if yeah, like all things, if you're in a position where you really want to sell something, whether it's a property or anything else, and the market's against you, well that's a challenge. If you're playing the long game, there's no urgent need to sell. But broadly speaking, property keeps line keeps up with inflation, or the or the or CPI, shall we say, that version of inflation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Okay. Carl.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Next point. Next point. What's the next point?
SPEAKER_03How to stand out with your communication. Oh, but yeah, what's the next point? How to stand out with your communication. Kyle Penn.
SPEAKER_01Uh Kyle Penn, right? So I received a uh referral from a trappist uh over the last couple of weeks from a guy called Kyle Penn. Really great guy. Um, he sent us probably an ideal client for Meta. So um thank you very, very, very much for that, Kyle. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_04Was that the one I introduced to you, Carl? Was that another one?
SPEAKER_01Well, no, he was uh he was already looking for me, but then you gave him the email address. Yeah, so Kyle did did uh come to me, Andy. But yeah, you're welcome. No problem at all. Yeah. Thanks, Kyle, for listening to Trap and uh coming across to us like that. Anyway, uh I linked in with Kyle. I had a really lovely conversation with him, and I looked at some of his LinkedIn posts. Now, Kyle is on all sorts of other social media, so it's not only you don't uh just find his uh stuff on LinkedIn, but that's obviously the only one I'm on. And do you know what? Kyle does not necessarily look exactly like your average financial advisor, and his messaging is really, really, really succinct. Uh, it's really probably niche in that he's focusing in on the point about being ready for a purposeful retirement, and it's not like um all of the other content I see from all of the other financial advisors out there, which um is possibly a little bit boring, and then the people who try to be a little bit daring are coming across a little bit like the Wolf of Wall Street. We all know probably a few of those that we've seen. I thought Kyle's was uh very authentically himself, he's very much himself in the videos. I think the message is really, really clear, it's really, really consistent, and I just thought everybody should have a look at Kyle's uh LinkedIn videos because how you put across your message um does not need to be the same as everybody else, and therefore, you if you if you're brave enough to be your authentic self, which clearly, clearly, clearly Kyle is, well, then you can stand out from the crowd and you will attract your tribe because um I just thought it was absolutely brilliant, and I I just thought it was like nothing I'd seen before, uh, so truly, truly unique and truly original. Although the messaging is probably a lot of what we're talking about here and what we've all put out. So I would encourage everybody be brave, be your authentic self, and don't be afraid to be exactly that. Be yourself, and bravo, Kyle Penn, you legend. Absolutely brilliant.
SPEAKER_03Great stuff, great stuff. Um, authenticity does really count in this, don't um, this is why AI should never do your communications for you because people will see through it. You've got to write and speak in your own voice, uh, or voices, in the case of me. So, um right, I haven't got much on episode 104 to contribute. I've been away on holiday for 10 days, it's the dog days of summer. So I'm gonna go and just abuse my position as the world's greatest moderator and say I run a fantasy football, NFL fantasy football league. If you want to join, there's a link in the so-called show notes. You've got about three days after this comes out on Thursday to do so because we're holding our draft on Sunday at 5 30 in the afternoon. That's me done. Right, Smithy, business property relief schemes. That's NFL. Is that that American football? Yes. The stuff the stuff the Scots don't play. Oh, you don't play any football, do you? Sorry, I forget. You don't play any football, no. Just Celtic and Rangers, and the rest of the country is just a lot of people. We uh we do.
SPEAKER_02I remember Scotland did have an American football team. I think they were called the Claymores, Scottish Claymore or Glasgow or Scotland Claymores, but they uh you may have gone out of business, I'm not sure. But I do remember looking at the city.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there was a glass there was a Scottish French years ago. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There's an NFL game on in it, might be a college game, actually. It's on in Ireland, uh, it's on every year, and they sell out Crow Park, so they get 82,000 people at it. Yeah, unbelievable. Apparently it's really.
SPEAKER_03I think you had the NFL came last year. I think the NFL now, they they they play in they play in England, they play in Spain, they play in Germany, and I think they're gonna play regularly in in Ireland.
SPEAKER_02Wow, amazing. Crap sport. Amazing. I want to I wanted to raise this. We discussed, or I discussed with Andy anyway, whether we should do a whole kind of meat and potatoes about this because uh quite a big issue, affects a lot of advisors, not necessarily anyone or most most of us anyway, from this uh this particular table. Um I just saw a lot of uh comment reporting on specifically, well, business property relief inheritance tax planning schemes, and specifically uh octopus. Now, octopus are one of the biggest players in the marketplace. I've got no strong sort of feelings for or against octopus, but I know I think they're the biggest uh in this marketplace. I do know a lot of advisors uh historically have used this type of scheme, continue to use this type of scheme, and as the I guess the market leader or one of the market leaders uh do a lot of work with octopus, but uh it was the Telegraph that were running a whole series of uh reports about this. And so when this our our sort of day-to-day world hits the kind of mainstream media, we begin to pay a bit more attention to it. And it was just that uh octopus investments have got this uh scheme um under the name of Fern Trading, the underlying investment company, um 3.2 billion, which is not a small amount of money, 18,000 investors have been operating for more than a decade. And without going into all the sort of whys and wherefores, it does look a bit, you know, if if you believe what the uh article, the telegraph article, and then subsequent um uh our our own sort of trade press picked up on this, it does look very murky. Um, where, for example, Fern made loans to two companies that they also owned. Um they lent 64 million to a private hospital group, which ran into difficulty and suffered uh 42 million pounds loss, also lent money to a retirement village developer where that that whole loan had to be written off. Look, they're coming in for a lot of um you know uh you know commentary, most of which is negative about these things. We know that these can, although it's getting sort of less attractive now, but they can provide tax planning benefits. Um, but when you see this sort of coming up and a lot, you know, 18,000 investors, which and I'm gonna guess that on average they are kind of more older than average when inheritance tax becomes more of an issue and could be quite elderly type people. I'm just sort of raising this as uh as a discussion point. I think I'm right in saying, Andy and Nick, in terms of the UK advisors here, haven't really dipped your toe in this world. I know that we haven't, we've inherited a few over the years, but we've never really proactively got behind it. I I mean on a personal basis, I always had some doubts about it, about about the whole structure. And yes, you can get carried away by the on the face of it, there are some beneficial you know, tax angles on it. But you know, like everything, everything's a trade-off. Um, but it's interesting while the chickens coming home to roost, or these things finally um beginning to fall apart. I don't know. What are your thoughts, Andy?
SPEAKER_04I thought it was interesting that the average investor's got about 177,000 of 18,000 investors. Yeah, they'd probably likely be a lot older. Um, it's this whole tax uh, you know, tail wagging the dog and all that stuff. Um and with these schemes, you've got to own them forever. They qualify within two years, but then you've got to hold this guff forever. And the lost opportunity just on normal investing, um, you know, it doesn't really stack up. You might as well just invest in a global equity portfolio, get a great return over 10-15 years that will absolutely smash the returns on this. I think they're trying to mirror inflation, aren't they, Alan? Or three percent a year? That's that that's the plan.
SPEAKER_02Net of fees, and the fees are punchy to say they're the fees are punchy, yeah. But that's hard to just keep pace with inflation. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I generally avoid them. Again, that's the other skill of great financial advisors. We try and uh avoid things that are gonna cause our clients, you know, high lot high lot of friction, friction, high lot of hassle, um, and not working.
SPEAKER_00Andy, the ultra-probadarian Andy. He knows about everything, Andy. Can't be told anything. His name is Andrew Hart.
SPEAKER_02Andrew Hart Oh, thank you, Nicholas. Over to you, Nicholas. Do you have this sort of uh scheme in Ireland? Do you have much example? That's not my hand raised, Alan.
SPEAKER_03That's not my hand raised there at all. That's just something you were imagining on your screen.
SPEAKER_04So go on. Yeah, don't sit on the fence, Nick.
SPEAKER_03Go on, Carl.
SPEAKER_01Carl, you are these like EIAS schemes? Is that yeah?
SPEAKER_04No, slightly different.
SPEAKER_03No, they are in the same ballpark, yes, for the ease of crowding communication. Yes, they are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I did two of them before myself. I lost all my money in both of them. I'm not a great fan. I have it. There's a great story that I can't tell publicly about one of them that went pear-shaped, but basically on the trap retreat, Carl. On the trap retreat. Yeah, on the trap retreat. There we go. Yeah, no, so I I I uh but I I have clients who are like, you know, ringing us up going, Can you get us an EIS? I need to get an EIS. And it's like, I don't care what the EIS is, I just want the tax write off. And you're going, Well, yeah, yeah, tax write off, but you know, you'll kind of that's over a couple of years and yeah, I don't just get find me one and you're like No, we won't. There's no way. There's there's a couple of uh fairly significant places doing EIS a kind of funds, a fund of funds. So you'll have a whole bunch of them together. Um and that's probably a little bit better than just doing an EIS into the guy down the road who's decided.
SPEAKER_03Well, double double layers of fees as well.
SPEAKER_01So um yeah, I I do genuinely have a couple of great stories on that book. Well, yeah, but it's you know learned, you know. Uh in the retreat, yeah, but I did learn my lesson, and never, ever, ever again. Never again.
SPEAKER_03So I've I've never done an advised VCT or anything in that in this area at all. Every time I look at it, it gives me the the willies. VCTs, I guess, are the least toxic, but that that market's got to be gone now. Now the tax relief, I think, is down from 30 to 20% going in. You've still got all the pain in the arse from that moment on. And it's funny, it's like I've heard lots of stories from IFA, horror stories when they've done like one or two BPRs years ago and they wish they'd never done it. Um, I don't really hear many success stories with these products. So an IFA is normally would like like all of us, like we like to cry about things that have gone well, and we don't tend to sort of publicize when things haven't gone so well. And I just don't hear the good stories from these things ever. And I just think that we were, yeah, Andy, yeah, we were maybe we used our intuition and our skill to to to shield our clients from this, and that is a big part of being a good advisor for whatever reason. None of us in this room have put it through our business, uh our regulated businesses, and I would uh I would not want to be in the situation of of of being an regulated advisor, given advice to do this, and now you're trying to explain to clients what's going on. It's murky upon murky, and then you know, a funder fund EIS, okay, maybe you're ameliorating the risk a little bit, but of course what you're doing is adding another layer of those expensive fees on top already for a product that barely keeps pace with inflation, if at all. And once you write off the tax rebate and everything else, I don't know. I um I I just think there, by the grace of God, go I. Because for whatever reason, I never I never recommend them to clients.
SPEAKER_02Just yeah, just another point to add to this. I think advisors, we can get caught up in the moment. It can be an attractive opportunity if you've got a very, I don't know, tax-sensitive client and you say, Well, I've got one of these, or I've got one of you know, this other type of product. But a couple of things to bear in mind. Number one, uh, and I just know this from our own um experience and reporting. When you come to renew your professional indemnity insurance, yeah, I'm telling you, it's so nice to just tick the box. Do you have any of the following? And you give you a big long list of you know your usual suspects. Have you recommended this? Have you advised on that? If yes, to what extent? And to just go, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope it gives it gives you insight, Alan.
SPEAKER_04It gives you insight into all the things to avoid. It's literally a list of scene products that you think I definitely don't want to get involved in these ever, especially now and after a few years.
SPEAKER_02Well, clearly, I think you and I we can talk about this and we like them or we don't like them, and that that's just kind of a subjective opinion. But people that are managing risk, that's we it's the same in the bond market, the insurance market, those that are carrying the can for when it goes wrong, those are the ones that will determine whether this is a good idea or not. And if you say yes, we do a load of this type of product, I can assure you the cost of running your business will be significantly greater. And you wonder whether there's enough trade-off in terms of the additional commission, because it is a commission really, that you manage to secure versus the additional costs and risks of running your business. And the other thing worth bearing in mind is, and I've spoken to a number of advisors who've gone through an exit on this, and that is part of your diligence. Your buyer comes in and says, right, let's open the books, let's look at all your products and services. And they, of course, they'll immediately mark that down as being this is a risky part of your business, and they may exclude it from your business valuation, they may chip away at your valuation, or they may ask you through the um, what do they call them? We cardinals about this, but the warranties and various other things. If we get a complaint about this the next three to five years, you're on the hook for it. So I think sometimes you've got to step back from the immediate, wow, this looks kind of sexy and it's a tax saving wheeze, to think strategically as a senior person or a business owner and say, how is this negatively going to impact my business? Overall, I see more negatives than I do positives.
SPEAKER_03I I always think when I do my PR, and I come to that my PI even, and a PR before I just let my PI, I come to that page about have you written this toxic stuff and all these categories. And I always mentally label that as the JJ page. JJ, of course, a close friend of the show. Um he'll see what that means.
SPEAKER_02Um we're a close relative of his. Recommended every single one of them, and he's paying the price still. Yeah. God bless you, JJ. We love you.
SPEAKER_04I'm trying to get the list up, Nick, on my PI renewal to see if I can read out the things to be avoided. Oh, I've got it here. Have you done any structured products, any geared or leverage investments, exchange traded products, any unregulated investment or scheme, tax mitigation schemes duck with VCT, EIS or VPR, bridging finance, peer-to-peer lending or crowd funding, QROPs, traded life policies, life settlements, viatical funds, hedge funds, absolute return funds, discretionary portfolio management, acting as a pension trustee, investments in residential property.
SPEAKER_03That's your ready-made list of things that is.
SPEAKER_04Don't get involved in any of that stuff.
SPEAKER_03Making me come out and a sweat here in that kind of stuff. But there will be firms out there, you know, especially multiple RI firms that don't have a centralized investment proposition or didn't have a centralized investment proposition, weren't doing financial planning, who 15 years ago were doing this stuff as almost a regular part of their business. And you're thinking, oh my giddy aunt, I just don't know how you could.
SPEAKER_02But that's the point. That that underwriter, that insurer is just that they're qualifying your risk. They're understanding, quantifying, qualifying. They're saying if the answer's yes, we will A, we want to know a lot more information, and B, it's going to cost you. Because there's no question you're running a riskier business.
SPEAKER_04It's funny how absolute return funds are in there. Again, something else we uh avoid. Um, it's it's advice of admission, isn't it? As in the things that you haven't done that our clients don't see. Um, yeah, and it says if you have done any of these, if you've got yes to the above, please provide the details of the products used and the size of the investments on page six.
SPEAKER_01Guys, I I did I did almost every single one of those in my career.
SPEAKER_05And you're still here.
SPEAKER_01No, full disclosure, and that's why I went out my own in 2010 and said, right, I am never ever.
SPEAKER_04You don't think we should bring back Wild West Widger? Yeah, I know, exactly.
SPEAKER_01But it's it but it's it's um that was the old call. Full disclosure. Like if you're if you're not if you're not if you don't learn from your mistakes, right, then you're you're really at nothing. And from 2010 onwards, right, I well, probably there was nothing happening in Ireland between 2008 and 10. But from 2010 onwards, I just went, I am not getting distracted by anything. And the amount of times in that period that people went, oh my god, you are such a dope. You know, you're leaving so much money, yeah, so much money on the table. And by God, it stood to me. So, like as I always say, if you're asking your clients to look to the long term, well, you and your firm need to look to the long term too, and that means that you have laser focus on what you're gonna do, and you just leave out all the bullshit, and it just made my life just so much easier. I didn't have any crap to be dealing with, and uh, so be it, if I left some stuff on the table. I I don't think it worked out too badly in the end, but um, but like it it's it's it would be remiss of me to in this conversation not to say, yeah, mea culpa. Like Ireland in in the early 2000s, like we were doing everything, you know. I've spoken to you guys about I I was selling Villas down in Portugal at one stage. So I like I really I was like, But um you know, you gotta you know, you know, and hopefully people can learn from my mistakes and go, okay, you know, there's a guy who's been there, done that. And the it was mental torture, like trying to clean up those messes. It really, really, really was. So don't do it.
SPEAKER_03Do not echoing your point there, Carl. So um perhaps I was informed by my experience at my previous IFA firms. I've only been at two firms, and I joined my first firm in 2001, and they were decent, they were decent people, a decent firm, but they did have this thing about going to seminars and being sold the shiny latest thing, and they did get involved in zero um zero dividend preference share funds. You remember those? I think they dabbled a bit with student let accommodation stuff, and then I'd look at this these things unwind a year or two in or three years in and think I must have internalized that. So when I went out in 2008, I thought I'm I'm yeah, I know what I want to do, and I know what I don't want to do, and what I saw from my previous film, that element of it is definitely very high in the do not want to do part of my life. Um, so there, it's there.
SPEAKER_04And and us going to uh mastermind groups like IX, we hear all these horror stories in the room. That one of the main reasons I go there is to hear all the shit to avoid. I don't really get too many great ideas, it's just all right, avoid that. That's a disaster. Thanks for sharing that. Why did you get involved in that? Um, you know, it's more uh learning about yeah, all the all the mistakes of other advisors. So, yeah, good point. Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_02I I think just to tie a bow on this, because but I think it is a potentially very big subject. If you approached the work we do like for fat financial planning from a from first principles, or what you're trying to do is really to steal it all down, distill it all down, you're trying to create um security uh for your clients, a peace of mind, all those things. And that that is called financial independence, financial freedom. You've got sufficient free cash flow to live the life according to the terms you want to live it on. And that's it. And and the way to do achieve that, you should also try to achieve that in the most simplest, lowest risk, if you like, lowest complexity. If I can get all those things for my clients whilst being relatively straightforward and daily liquidity and just legitimate uh HMRC approved tax structures, etc. Then why? Why would I want to add complexity to it? Because if if you believe what the end result we're trying to achieve is, yeah, a final point on this, Alan.
SPEAKER_04Um, we personally don't get involved in EIS's, VCTs, BPR products for ourselves. Personally, so if you are selling this stuff to clients, I think it's a bit more authentic if you actually buy these products yourselves. Um, and a lot of the visors that do sell these do invest in themselves, and also SJP does a lot of work in this space, they're probably the biggest seller of these schemes. So uh all those companies.
SPEAKER_02They were named in our article.
SPEAKER_04Is that fern still taking on new clients, Alan?
SPEAKER_02No, they've well they've suspended it for the moment, they've suspended anything everything, like new business in and any money coming out. So I think it's what you call under review, to say the least. But just just to pick you up on that quickly, Andy, I on a personal basis have invested personally in PIS. And but this is that's an entirely different thing.
SPEAKER_04We know that we know the people, we know the investors that you have.
SPEAKER_02Basically fin tech startups, and I get a tax break on it. That's that's an entirely different thing to saying I want to invest in a tax favoured product. What's the underlying um companies that you're or company that you're gonna invest in? That's an entirely different thing. If you like putting a bit of money into you know interesting new startup companies, and you can get the tax break, but you'd have done it, I'd have done it anyway, with or without a tax break. Yeah, that's another conversation.
SPEAKER_03Okay. That was a good topical tip bit. Okay, so I I've got to do a drop for revolution, Revolute. I'll have to work out what it's doing.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, I think we should uh we should probably replace the PRSA corner with Revolut Corner. Um, yeah, these guys um PRSA corner.
SPEAKER_03Well it ultra uh Carl, before you go off, it's actually ultra first on Revolute and then use my friend.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've got two two points on Revolute. Carl will have a third point. Um they are absolute guns blazing this company. They are absolutely taking over the world. I think they're gonna be one of the definitely, you know, if not the biggest bank, neo bank in the world. They're advertised all over the airports. I'm in Portugal at the moment, they're plastered all over Faro Airport. Um, and they're just now getting involved in actually opening their own airport lounges. Uh, they're opening their own airport lounge in uh Copenhagen in 2027. Um, and two weeks ago in Albania, I went to the lounge and my mates got their ultra uh pack. Uh so Revolute do something called Ultra. They got all these different tiers of membership, which again is uh amazing. Um, so if you are a uh a big user of Revolute, as you are, Carl, um they have this ultra pack um that is uh really good. I personally am not doing it because I use the services of all the other stuff elsewhere, but it's definitely uh worth checking out. Uh so yeah, Revolute uh keep doing their thing, and it's great that they're obviously UK, even though the founder has uh shipped uh himself off offshore to save a few quid. And you know, it's not um you know, you can't blame him if he's gonna save a couple of years.
SPEAKER_03Wadge, what's your point?
SPEAKER_01Uh well to well, you can use the Dublin Airport Lounge. So so they're they are opening up their own lounge, but in you if you go into the benefits in your in the section, you can there's a whole free if you've got the ultra, yeah. Yeah, and you can you can just use them free. Um do you know how hard it is to set up a direct debit mandate? It's just a pain in the ass, and you've got to prove whatever, right? So I just set up that I'm gonna pay my kids rather than giving them revolute whenever blah blah blah. I've just said, right, guys, every Sunday I'm gonna give you your your weekly and I literally in the app went into the calendar, schedule payment, boom, pick the name, and away you go. Like, I mean, they're transforming, they're disrupting banking everything, right? They they they they really are, and and and the funny the Premier League is back, and I'm I'm watching some of the highlights, and there's so much of the of Revolute and Monzo and all these guys, like the banking industry is just gonna be shaken up. But what Revolute are also doing is they're gonna shake up the investment management industry. So um doing what these guys do, they've obviously introduced investing, and they're they're you can invest in some of their ETFs from the likes of Vanguard and BlackRock via their app now. They're gonna do it themselves. So basically, they have applied for their license to be an ETF provider. Seriously. Yeah, this won't be a quick fix. So obviously, they have to go through the hoops, but they're gonna base it in Dublin through their Dublin office. So obviously, that allows them to go into Europe and they'll they're gonna create their own ETFs. So it's funny, they'll bring in the guys, the big guys, and they'll learn from them and then go, yeah, we can do that ourselves. So uh watch this space, it's um yeah, so interesting what's happening, and um that they've do they've already, in my eyes, just totally and utterly disrupted banking and made it so so easy versus the traditional banking model, um, and now they're gonna do it in our business as well. So I think um everyone needs to be absolutely in tune and aware as to what's going on because if you're um saying that you know you should get paid because of what you're bringing to your clients in terms of investments, well, I think you've got a big fright coming and you ain't gonna have to wait that long for that big fright to become a reality.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd um I've got a my own take on this. You're right. I mean, I I've now I I've been a revolute user for years, but increasingly becoming a power user, and I do need to look into these things of upgrading it because because bit by bit you just find, well, I could just use it for this. I just had it as a separate account to send people money in the past, but now it's it's far more integrated. It was only for quite recently, I mean, the last couple of weeks that they announced anyway that they got their formal UK banking license. They've had it for a while. When I just got I just got an email, I think it was last week, from the so that so they you know they qualify for the you know the government safety net thing if anything went wrong, etc. So they're a formal UK bank uh now. But I I'm just uh who knows what they're up to, but they certainly seem to have a sort of you know global world domination strategic plan. They're they're sort of the big all over the world. And I'm just I looked at that airport lounges and I thought, I thought initially, what's that all about? What's that got to do with anything having airport lounges? But I've got a theory and I wrote about it on LinkedIn a few weeks ago, is along the lines of as data and information just becomes it just flows, you know, AI will have if you you can give AI access to everything and you know, cash flow models and everything, you'll be able to do it on your phone and et cetera, et cetera. But community and meeting with people and sitting in a place uh is gonna be increasingly important. So how you deliver your in real life service experience, I think my view on it is gonna become more important. Getting people together, like-minded clients, having events, hosting things, all that sort of thing. I think that's where the world and the market is gonna go. And I've no idea, but whether that's what they're thinking, do you get you know a lot of business travelers, ultra-level revolute customers, and get them together and just say, well, if you for your New York flight, we're getting together and doing some sort of talks about investment or financial planning or something. I think it seems to me they've got like a, I don't know, five or ten year plan to dominate the entire vertical around banking, investment management, and ultimately wealth management, financial planning, call it what you will. I would not bet against them at all. Very, very smart people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01They're not that new, you see. So they're they're only new. People are only 10 years old. They're what, 10 years old, I think. Probably probably older. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But in the grand scheme of things of world banks, they're incredibly new.
SPEAKER_03Okay, 40 minutes in. Uh uh Smithy, DFA guy launches.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I said I'd do a shout out. Some of you will know James Stewart, um, ex-dimensional fund advisors, perfect human, one of the many perfect humans coming out of uh Dimensional. Jay, I had a chat with Dimensional Factory. Yeah, I had a chat with uh James last week. I mean, it's a pretty brave move, frankly, to leave uh you know an august organization like Dimensional Fund Advisors, where he was, I can't remember exactly, but you know, he's a he was in a senior role, regional director, whatever, and he's walked away to follow his passion and um you know to to be an entrepreneur to launch his own business. Um and I said I'll give him a shout out, had a really good call with him, something that again, candidly I'm a bit skeptical about, but he won me over during a conversation. Uh his business is called Bamboo Invest, uh Bamboo, as in Bamboo Shoots, etc. Bamboo Invest. I posted a link to it in the uh show notes. And I think what what he's doing is he's going back to this, what is broadly called, you know, ESG type investment. And of course, there's a wide, wide range of these things. I know this is one for you, Nick. But from you know, regardless, some clients still are interested in this level, but they are that no one's really quite nailed it in terms of you know the various shades of green that there are, you know, very light green. Do you want just a pure investment return? Do you want to, you know, eliminate whatever tobacco tobacco products, which is one I had quite recently, a particular client had an issue uh with that, and so on and so on, all the way down to impact investing, you know, actually investing in companies that have formally make making a significant impact to their community or country. Um and it's it's as much of a kind of training program. There's a lot of content, there's a lot of information there. And if you're I think if you're remotely in this market or have a few clients or a number of clients that are interested, and you haven't quite been able to fit them, you've you've recommended, I don't know, an ESG portfolio or a Vanguard or a dimensional portfolio, that might not have quite fitted that specific client who wanted something a bit more bespoke. So I think what um what James is doing is interesting, and if you are, as I say, if you're in that world, check out the link, get in touch with James. They're very early stages yet, but they're about to you know launch quite significantly. And I think this is another it's another useful resource for for fat financial planners.
SPEAKER_04It's quite niche, isn't it? Sustainable MPS. So yeah, good luck, James. It's a brave move leaving leaving the big D. Alan. No, done.
SPEAKER_03Ultra U. Annuity.
SPEAKER_04This is incredibly interesting, Nick. So hold up. Um no, I do quite a lot of uh work in the immediate need care annuity space. So people in care homes, obviously, the average cost of care now is probably about 120,000 in the UK. I have seen 145,000 recently, but around about 100k. Obviously, it needs to be funded. Um, there are there are currently four providers in this space. The big ones that people know are Aviva Legal in General, the smaller ones are just and national friendly. Anyway, in uh August, oh sorry, no, we're already in August. Uh about now uh or September, uh, there's gonna be a fifth launch in the market called British Friendly. So if you are in this space, the uh form you need to complete now gets sent off to five providers, and then all the quotes come back in. So it'll be interesting to see how aggressive they are launching into this market. But if you are a lot of your clients have elderly parents that are often in care homes, so I have uh a bit of an eye on this market. Um, so uh it's quite niche, you can't really dabble in it, but I know a few other advisors are starting to get into this space, they're doing the exam and they're getting a bit more clued up uh on the options. So um, yeah, that's it really. So, yeah, there's a new insurance company launching in the immediate new care annuity market, which is all good. Then we've got five providers fighting for the business. Back to you, Nicholas.
SPEAKER_03That's good. That's good stuff. Good stuff. More competition is always a good thing. I'm going to really am going to sort of crowbar this in because it's around financial planning and inheritance tax planning, which all comes into this later life stuff with you know immediate care and do you plan for that and so forth. And it's back to this point about I think Alan's made this point before because he has this flat fee system Alan where bizarrely all your clients end up paying 0.97% on their assets. But nevertheless, you have this flat fee arrangement. And I had a client uh two weeks ago said we want to give away a six figure sum from our ISIS because I've been urging them to do it. You've got more money than you're never going to need. You're going to have loads. Start giving it away with a warm hand. You've got three children who love you, a very tight family all the marriages are very appear to be very solid and good. Just start giving the money out now when you're alive. And they did it and last week Transact paid out this six figure sum into the bank account and um it didn't cross my mind for one minute that there's a loss of revenue to me. I just I I maybe it's because I've got a mature business. It it didn't even I've been pushing this conversation from my end for these guys and I was so chuffed when they decided to do it and hopefully they'll do it again next year and so forth. So um I don't know I I I every fee model has that has conflicts along the line along the way. Exactly um and I think the Adviloran one is as good as it gets as long as it's it's transparent and you're upfront about it. But the the fact that I'm losing revenue through this in the cosmic bank some it's the the the register is is is chiming away somewhere else and it it all goes around.
SPEAKER_01So sorry I've kind of hoisted that point to make a yeah but it doesn't matter what fee model you have if you're not acting in the best interest of your clients it doesn't matter what the fee model is. Exactly let's just hope that we're the um you know that everybody well certainly in this group and and everyone following this podcast are gonna always act in the best interest of your client that's that's what integrity looks like and that's what we'll pay back in life.
SPEAKER_03You know the longer the longer I'm in this game the more I think it's just encourage people to give money away while they're alive. Try and avoid bloody trust and all that other nonsense. Just to have a have a financial planner who's got who's done the proper cash flow modelling with you with the decent software so you're pretty confident in the long term out uh implications of giving away large amounts of money and just do it when you're alive. You know how lovely to pay for I don't know to pay for your granddaughter's private education or to help your your daughters such a nice thing isn't it for whilst you're alive to see that children grandchildren and just you know I guess seeing the joy in their face and how they can use it.
SPEAKER_01Exactly this in the last episode like it is that that is what what yeah what better gift can you give to those that you love?
SPEAKER_02And yeah another reason why you have to do proper financial planning. Yeah you before we were doing this I mean I was talking about this you know when I got started nearly 20 well more than 20 years ago but I wasn't doing proper cash flow in those days and you've always got this inherent doubt that the client says that you know your parent or grandparent type client says but what if I need the money? That was always a thing. I might you know I don't want to give it away now because I might need it. Once you run a model and you absolutely you know you test it and you double test it and you make some big assumptions for inflation say or big you know as we call it UFOs unidentified um financial objects or expenses that you hadn't anticipated build all that thing into it for comfort and then you've still got more than enough then give it away how the hell you can do this without a proper time specific and money specific financial plan is beyond me. Yeah absolutely okay thank you gents so we are right now 47 minutes the next thing on here is oh my god come on Smithy make this one sense I am coming out with all the hot new things this week boys but um Mr Magpie has got it well no I I raised this I'm sure I raised it last uh last time about it's been on the go for several years um since guilt yields improved uh for those with those with um short term needs uh want to put effectively I've got a big tax bill or I've got something or other that's a year two three years away so it's not really long-term investment money uh historically we were just you know saying national savings and others and and we've heard a lot of advisors using guilt recommending guilt so I went down that particular rabbit hole because we've got a specific client situation that we wanted to explore and there was absolute you know mixed feedback from other people that I knew that were active in it in terms of have they got specific regulatory permissions to do it. Some said yes we've got that and others said no but I don't think we need it. And we checked out with our compliance people they said you absolutely do need it. It is a security you unless you've got permission to act on behalf of a client to purchase a direct security in a form of a government guilt you can't really be doing it. So there's a lot of uh yeah sort of I don't know misunderstanding about this right now but I was intrigued when it was very recently uh a friend of the podcast second best looking financial planner around uh John Douglas who's the best looking Andy look at Andy's looking he thinks his head he thinks he's him but J JD who runs uh you know a a great business uh here in London and uh become a good good mate of mine but he was telling me just the other day uh about the AJ Bell have got a product is a kind of it's a suite of different so that's a that's a like an MPS it's the mutual fund in OIC or whatever so that that I'm you know we are dire regulated for and it you can sort of tie it in with the client's needs what they want to receive and when worth exploring and and the thing is you know we can say oh what's the difference but it's probably a percentage point difference net net return and if you've got like three four million quid which some of these things are for a period of time uh a percentage point is worth doing and I am in the world of demonstrating value for clients in a very not not through like crazy complex esoteric IHT schemes but something like this which is you know a major player AJ Bell uh particular fund mutual fund you know you can you can buy it directly you can own it I guess within an I well if you if your ISO fund is big enough etc etc worth exploring because it meets that uh requirement that some clients have where you're adding value without the complexity and the compliance risk of trying to buy a guild directly on behalf of a client I've I've I've put a link to it in the show notes.
SPEAKER_03That was interesting tonight thank you. I want to have a look at that and the final topical tidbit of episode 104 The Ni Quattro is down to you Mr.
SPEAKER_01Wodge uh the other hand podcast this one is uh probably one of the top rated podcasts in the business category in Ireland uh recorded by Jim Power and I think Chris Johns who was an ex-fund manager and they just talk about random stuff that kind of comes up but this one was um of particular interest to me and it's about at the whole AI disruption across many different professions and services so they discussed um that Chris had been to dinner with a prominent divorce lawyer who was saying that he's just about to get out of the business because he's had enough and he feels that the AI disruption is here and is real um and he's probably right but the it was funny he was saying that um he had he was representing one part of a couple who were divorcing um this might be uh resonate with a few of us on here and um and basically the fees they were fighting so much over a long period of time that the fees came so big that they couldn't afford lawyers either of them um basically what they both did was they both ran they decided they were going to represent themselves and they ran their cases that they presented in court through AI chat GPT or one of those and the lawyer said you know what it was at least 80% correct and really all it needed was someone experienced to go yeah you need to tweet that or tweet but it was nearly nearly spot on um so number one I'm recommending this podcast because it's it's it's quite good and they just they they they it's very conversational and it's very topical but number two um spoke already about the disruption in the banking world we spoke already about the disruption in the investing world and now here's proof of disruption in the legal world it's here it's here it's absolutely here and I think that's probably a good segue into our meat and potatoes today.
SPEAKER_02Is that why you sold Carl perfection it's perfection no perfect we'll roll this into the next section I've got things to say about it. But but of course that it is a it is a freaking tsunami hitting all professional services right now and there will be women not insightful though is it this is that we know this so can we just click on it's that's a new bit of uh insight from the you know divorce lawyers who you think is a highly personalised type of professional I think it's superb it will be able to spit out divorce solutions in literally two minutes because lawyers take it ongoing campaign against divorce months to get back to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah but hey if a lawyer gets back to you in a week they think it's quick if they get back to you in a week we don't want to lead to experience Andy no I'm leading that charge um and Andy is right behind me but I like it's it's uh but the the the divorce the divorce lawyers um but basically stir up shit between two humans and then then they let the emotions run riot between two people and families they don't give a shite about the impact that it has on everybody that they leave behind because they'll stir up fees. So I can tell you if this is one uh part of a profession that could be disrupted I would be delighted and um yeah I think they deserve everything they get okay right drawing a line under that let's move on to the meat and potatoes of episode 104 because we're in the dog days of summer had a fantastic summer here in uh in in uh the UK England and and Europe's had a good summer I think I think Ireland's had a share of good weather and so forth but we're coming to the end of it hopefully all rich are all all four of us have been away on our summer holidays some of us stuck with the programme stuck with recordings other ones kind of dropped out and let themselves down a little bit but we're not going to dwell on that um so let's look at what we've been doing what we're gonna do now for the remaining what third of the year four months or so to go in 2026 we've got a planning for that we all know that 2027 will be upon us like that because that's just the weather fugits um so what have we been doing what plans have we got for the rest of the year what plans are we laying for the next year I'll start off with you Carl yeah I suppose this one was uh fairly pertinent for me because obviously I'm in a a new home now in NFP and uh we're probably three months in are we three or four months in so I had set kind of a deadline for myself of the first of September to get to know the business get to know the people in the business and then decide well what were the kind of the short medium and maybe longer term goals for the business um and look I you know I'm I'm uh this is a theme of mine right I think the the financial planning um um business that we're in is being disrupted massively and I don't think it's going to look the same ever again I think if you're not planning for exactly that um I think you'll be left behind. I do however think that human connection will become more and more important um and um I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is on that right um but therefore you gotta look at what kind of uh service model we have and I suppose the um the business that that I need to um look after at NFP now is uh probably was a little bit disjointed in terms of there was there was a few different acquisitions made and it's up to me to um make that uh uh um the NFP way and bring the team together and make sure that we're all kind of doing something the the same so it doesn't matter if a client comes into uh consultant one or consultant twenty-eight and there are twenty-eight of them that broadly speaking you can all you can bring your own um uh your own style to it but broadly speaking the client's gonna get a financial plan it's gonna get evidence based investing um but then how do we sort out the support services behind it and um you know will we need the pod systems that I've spoken about before I I don't think we will I think we need to the we need to upskill ourselves to be absolute experts in what we can deliver and I think then let AI help us. So so I have a uh a week next week where I'm gathering all of the advisors together and then a lot of the kind of support people so there'll be a big crew together. Looking forward to it I'm gonna take four i I'm under a bit of pressure for it right um uh it's uh I I have to if I'm taking people advisors especially right who who make money out of seeing people if I'm taking them out of their job for four whole days to say let's all forget about what we know or we thought we know let's tear it up and let's decide well what's the way forward um I'm very very excited for it but I'll also be glad when it's over because there's been so much work has gone into it um there's some stuff that I still need sign off from NFP uh to to kind of really make it impactful but I have to say NFP have been really really really superb in following through on everything that they said they would and I'll and saying to me look yeah we said we wanted to create this uh financial planning at scale so um we'll back you to do that um but but I have to be very very um persuasive to the advisory team that this perhaps for some of them at least this new way of doing things will be uh worth everybody's while but I suppose part of that is that we have to decide on you know what our values are and really trust that over the long term by doing the right thing for the clients that that's how we'll actually make this a really profitable and successful business that everyone is proud to work in. So it's uh there's probably a lot of fluffy stuff going to be disp discussed next week ah my lord kumbaya my lord kumbaya but but but but but the reason this is easy for me is because I believe in it truly hundred percent absolutely believe in it and uh and I suppose it was good to say earlier on that I've done it the other way I've made all the mistakes this is the way to do it this will have the most the most impact and I'm hoping I can create um an environment where you know people can fulfil their own potential and high performers can perform highly as I often say so that's my plans for uh from next week and then into QQ4 and uh then hopefully creating a model that's sustainable into the long term for NFP great stuff well I'm yeah I mean Carl your situation is so so out different at the minute to to to certainly ultra and myself and even even to Alan given what you've done in the last few months um which is tremendous and you've got loads on your plate I I as ever I mean I I'm at the other bloody extreme my zero plans well zero yeah just keep on keeping you know when I set values division up in 2008 I had I had a plan and I still cleave to the plan um but I don't that's a long term plan that's an 18 year old plan now but it still remains applicable to me and I still cleave to it because the things I set out to do in 2008 are the things I still do today.
SPEAKER_03Beyond that I don't have any plans really uh I really I really don't I'm starting to look at what what you know what possible valuation could I get for my business if I were to sell but it's only really just my own just to script to scratch that itch. I am using you know AI was mentioned in the last topical tidbit and you referred to it um fleetingly there in your point Carl um I'm you know AI is making a big change but for me it's been immensely positive AI I'm loving it. I'm firing off these questions about I mean the mundane example but I had a client I was in Spain last week when I was in Spain the client emailed me and she said she's in a local government pension scheme career average earnings she's also paying money into a personal pension as employer pension contributions from another business she belongs to and I just wanted to work out what the annual allowance headroom was because she wants to pay another 500 quid now into the LGPS ABC scheme. And it's like oh my Jesus Christ and I put in three different AI models and it came back exactly with the right answer all the right answers. And I thought this is just absolutely I mean that's that's a hellish inquiry unless you're a specialist it's a hellish inquiry and suddenly and you know then on voyant because you know you could model you know thankfully voyant you can model care schemes really well now I know it's a 149th scheme voyant can accommodate career average earnings schemes I'm not sure you know people talk about cash flow modelling and then when you you drill down some of this shit they don't even you know they don't they yeah we can maybe go from personal pension to flex access drawdown but you've got to do this you know what I mean you've got to go around the back of the software and plug in this and so um yeah I loved it I know that that for me is I will be leading more an AI but I be beyond that but you know it's the unknown unknowns we don't know what the future holds it could be anything down the line and you know regulation can change can change all of our businesses um certainly in the UK you know for good or bad so but I'm just gonna plow and keep my head down doing what I'm doing building up significant wealth you know TLP she's uh she's going down to three and a half days a week from next month uh in the academic year starts again so that's a big change for her so she'll be around a bit more so that's gonna you know tensions are gonna be rising in Lincoln Lodge there's always are you going up to three you next going up to three and a half days a week I'll have to do something she'll be around the house I mean for Christ's sake uh I might have to get an office um but no I'm gonna keep on keeping on and I'm I'm perfectly happy with keeping on keeping on uh there's sometimes I think there's a lot of there's just as long as you know what you're doing and why you're doing it and what you're charging for it people are happy with what they're being charged then everything else can go to hell and you know just screw everything else you know keep on doing what you're doing so that's me out of interest Nick the three uh models that you used uh any further information to share about that was Gemini the one that was a little bit better I used uh I use Grok um I used Gemini and I use uh Saturn which is the financial services uh they all come up with the same answer all came up with the same answer Gemini is generally the quickest grok takes a little bit longer but they'll to the exact it was like something like oh yeah her her annual allow she's gone over the she's paid in 6218 pounds in this tax year from all these various sources but but it doesn't matter she's got a news relief we can carry forward so that the two grand extra but they all came back to it to uh to and the brilliant thing is they all cite they all cite the legislation they're drawing from they all tell you where they're getting this stuff from so it's just um it's just having that kind of it's like it's like me having a properly qualified power planner sitting on my shoulder and it's just that just whether the numbs here is bright enough to know to answer the questions in the first place um because it's the it's the unknown unknowns that kill you isn't it um but that's it's yeah that's honestly for solo advisors Andy I think AI is going to just be absolutely brilliant. And and no and every team like every yeah but sorry that's a car when you I don't have someone to talk to I can bounce something off quickly you know it's I can just you know I've do you use grok in your car Nick I use groc in my car I used to have the sweary version Andy but it's limited in what it can do and it used to tell me to F off all the time so we have to it's good with the kids asking questions and stuff. It's hilarious I do use groc in the car.
SPEAKER_02You oh by the way just closing on that I'd hired a car in Spain modern car the brand I wasn't familiar with OMO D A moda it's like a Kia Skoda SUV big bloody thing modern automatic and I couldn't wait to get home and drive in a proper car Tesla honestly once you drive a Tesla you're never going back um yeah there we go so Andy your hands raised oh sorry mate I'll blow it down oh is that okay fine so that's me done no plans for Lincoln keep on keeping on keep on trying to stay married uh who's going out of U2 Alan Nick hot half the income twice a spouse oh I could take twice the spouse I could take twenty times the spouse there's never enough spouse when it comes to TLP she's still listening to this episode she will do now now now she's been mentioned she asked me but you'll you'll insist upon it fast forward to come on me um interesting though Nick that it's really good that you've got a AI enabled power planner and technician to ask all the questions then the next iteration of that is the client doesn't even ask you because they just or the future prospective client doesn't even ask you. This is what we're potentially uh good it saves you a job Alan well it saves you taking on a new there won't be a client saves you taking on a new client is is the point. I think that this is one of the issues that those with uh mature books of business they're unlikely to have their clients sort of run away the next day because they can chat GPT or grok it but it's the next generation of clients that say well why am I even hiring this guy is you know it's a potential thing. There is you know we talk about this a lot it's a recurring theme for a couple of years on this podcast. There is a brilliant book by uh a guy called Andy Grove uh called Only the Paranoid Survive ever read it he's he's he's he's he's um no brilliant IBM Intel he was CEO of Intel Intel uh computer chip company, you know, way, way back in the day. It was a few. They were absolutely killing it. They had like massive market domination and they couldn't they couldn't imagine anything going wrong. And Andy Grove talks a lot about that because uh the book is called Only the Paranoid Survive. And he was making that point. He said, he said, success creates complacency, and complacency kills. The minute you think, well, my clients are never going to leave me, they love me, I always get a few referrals every year. He ran his whole operation on that, and sure enough, the uh the Japanese came in, completely undercut them, and the chip industry in the States in the 1990s was decimated, and all these companies uh ran into some serious, serious difficulties. So he just talks about act, you know, be paranoid in your business, assume the worst. It's great if it doesn't happen, but that's not a bad place uh to start from. Uh and that then leads me into what we're doing. Yeah, I've had a great summer, had some good time off, traveling here and there and chilling out, and I do a lot of time, uh spend a lot of time thinking. And I always try to think, you know, three years ahead, what is the shape of the business? What's it looking like? What's the industry? Where's it going? It is the um 10-ton elephant and the room, uh AI, but it's not just it's not AI, it's the implications downstream that that brings in. Um I've just got this emerging theory, and we are spending a lot of time in my business on this about trying to understand this different shape between uh a traditional professional services business that uses AI, you know, like Saturn and like the other ones, they're all great, and we've been using them for for several years now. But uh difference between that and what is more generically called an AI native business. In other words, it's just built, you've got an end-to-end uh AI platform where you've got a gentic AI, you've got these various different agents who are effectively speaking to each other and and who are not you move from being a co-pilot because most of these things are co-pilot, the the human does the work and gets a bit of assistance from a co-pilot, and you evolve into autopilot, whereas the task uh is set. In fact, sometimes the system automatically knows what the task is going to be and actually does the work. So that exists right now. So we are, without going into too much detail, spending quite a lot of time in you know, attempting to build our own version of an AI native um uh platform that will do most of these things because once you understand uh what these things are capable of, and and it's a lot more than asking Grof to do a tax calculation, it's mind-blowing. It really, really is. Um, I've seen some demos of some of the smart people in my organization and associated people that we're working with. And it's just incredible. And I can assure you that the shape of our industry will change beyond all recognition. Just to back up Carl's point, I mean, and it's not like a five, ten-year plan. This is in the next 12 to 18 months, I believe. The leading companies, the innovators who are adopting this, who are literally heads down building things right now, are going to are going to uh uh you know lead on this fundamental change. I don't think it's it means IFAs are out of business, far from it. But I think those that are going to thrive, I mean, thrive as opposed to sort of tread water and do okay and don't lose any clients. But those who are going to significantly scale and grow over the next five years plus are paying attention to this and working out how they create a much more proprietary in-house AI platform. The great thing about my business is I've got 22 years history and we've got all stuff that we've never explored before. We've got literally back of an envelope, you know, handwritten fact finds and stuff like that. It's just lost forever. You no one's ever going to find that again. Well, guess what? The AI tools can surface all that, and I can identify a conversation you had seven years ago about that client's daughter or granddaughter or whatever, and surface that up. So the whole thing becomes very, very highly personalized. But the key thing here is having an end-to-end platform. More work, more effort. Not everyone will be able to do it. But those of us who are kind of, I suppose, a mid-sized business do have the time and the resources to make this work. So who the hell knows? This all might just blow up in our face, it might not work out. But I am adhering to those principles of only the paranoid survive. Um, I think unless we are serious about this and pay it a lot of attention and are prepared to allocate time and money and resource to this, then uh the future might not be as bright. For I mean, again, back to Carl's point. I thought I thought that was I thought it was genuinely interesting that divorce, you know, high highly paid divorce lawyers, and one of them is just he's bailed, he's retiring as a result because he can see the writing on the wall. So I think you know, anyone under 50 certainly, who wants to have you know a 10 or 20 year career ahead of them needs to pay more attention uh to this. So, you know, I'll say more. I'll I'll probably come back to this at the end of the year, rolling into next year, once we've because I want to be able to share what we've actually built rather than just talk about it. But we are we're in build mode right now. So that that's what's pay that's what's uh attracting my attention, what I was reflecting on over the summer and what we're absolutely executing on day to day right now, leading up to Christmas.
SPEAKER_03Okay, good start. I think that's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair stab at the meat of potatoes, as I say. This is like quite nice to have a shorter episode. The last two episodes have been kind of behemoth in size. So we're what about Ultra?
SPEAKER_04What about me, mate? What's going on?
SPEAKER_03Oh, sorry, I thought you sorry, I thought you'd gone, sorry. My apologies.
SPEAKER_04No, I'm back. Uh I'm in Portugal and my tech's a bit here there and everyone. I just thought a load of people came back. I'm waiting for about 15 kids to come rolling in, so I'll get this uh over and done with quickly. Um they're yours or people you know. No, then my kids are at the beach with all the other kids. They've been told strictly not to come back before 4 pm, but that doesn't uh often uh often work like that. Same time zone in Portugal, Carl, which is quite interesting, isn't it? Very I think it's the only anyway. Right, and moving on. Uh yeah, my my year's quite predictable, um, which is quite good. Um, you know, I have the bulk of my annual planning meetings with my clients in February and March, so I'm deep in that zone. I then have Trap Live in May, and I usually go away for the bulk of August, and then now we're talking about what I'm up to for the next uh part of the year. Um, I've got Humans Under Management South Africa in September, I've got Humans Under Management London in November, and I have a uh a slightly unusual gig that I'm doing in October, where I've been asked to speak at the Greek financial planning conference. So if there are any Greek trappists listening to this, please do reach out to me. I'm a little bit struggling to work out what I'm gonna speak about because it's going to be translated from English to Greek live as I speak. Um so I'm assuming I'm gonna have to speak a lot slower, um, you know, to account for that fact. Um uh and then that that's that. And I suppose the big thing on my mind is I'm gonna do a digital rebrand of Maven Advisor. Uh, I launched the company in 2017, so it's basically 10 years, and I haven't touched the brand since then. Uh, I don't know if this is one of those projects where uh it doesn't need to happen and the brand's good enough, or I'm going to spend a shed load of time doing a digital rebrand. And then if I showed people the two options, they'd say I preferred the uh the original one. Um I'm calling it a digital rebrand because I don't print anything, there's no physical um physical copies of anything. So hopefully it'll be uh less painful than if there was a load of sort of um physical material. So that's it, really. I'm focusing on my two conferences uh and I'm gonna do a rebrand of a Maven Advisor. That's it. Back to you, Nicholas.
SPEAKER_02But Andy, can I just ask you, do you do you do you do you specifically think about like growth, for example? Do you think how am I going to improve my revenue, my profitability, my or do you think no, I'll just I'll just keep going?
SPEAKER_04No, I do, I definitely do. Um with Maven Advisor, I want another 20 ideal client families, and that'll be me sort of done on that side. I'm still growing humans under management, that is my let's say main focus. Uh so with that business, uh we provide content marketing material for financial advisors around the world. Uh, I've got a target number of members at the moment, we're hovering about 360 at the moment. Um I'd I'd love to triple those numbers, but it's uh it's uh quite a tough business to grow uh you know in terms of just new members. So yeah, I'm focused on on all the numbers and all the metrics. Yeah, I like looking at all that sort of stuff. Um, so yeah, that's uh that's my uh rest of the year. So uh yeah, as I say, I wake up on the 1st of January, I pretty much know what I'm doing. I've got uh 26 trap podcasts, I've got three conferences, I've got trap live, I've got 40 client meetings, you know, it's relatively set. Uh obviously it is uh a little bit of a Andy.
SPEAKER_01How much is how much is humans under management premium? Is that what you call it?
SPEAKER_04Yes, uh, I think the current price is 149. We started off at 99 pounds, then we went to 129, now we're at 149. We might do a price rise in 2027. Um, that business grows on campaigns where you do Black Friday deals, discounts, summer specials. It's a bit of a unique business. Um, but yeah, no, I I love running it, and we've got shed loads of content.
SPEAKER_01It is superb, and uh like we use it. There isn't a month that goes by that we don't use something from that from humans under management premium.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and we we did actually a big rebrand. We um sent out a a member survey, you know. We said, look, we're not gonna you know bombard you with these these things, but we've been running it for about five years, give us a load of feedback. Uh, we got a lot of feedback and um uh insight into basically what people use, what they don't use, because we we basically had features. So at the moment I think we've got something like we had something like 12 features, but basically 80% of the members used only two features, so we had to you know streamline it down. Um so basically we did uh a rebranding side so it looks a lot better, and we also simplified the product, and we added an AI search tool in there as well, which is very uh interesting. So advisors are using that, and we see all the prompts that they're searching for, you know, various different things at different times of the month and uh different times of the year. Um, yeah, it's a it's a great business. I love love running it. Um, but I just need to yeah, work out growth and yeah. Um yeah. All good. Back to you, Nicholas.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, amazing, Andy. You are. I mean, I am very structured in terms of my year, but I mean, Crikey, you are mega structured, and you do more in the final quarter of the year than most people do in the final quarter of their lives, so uh yeah, it's amazing. Um, all right, let's um, which is absolutely to your credit. Uh right, let's move on to what uh many people call the uh Trappist Questions part of the show. I know it's Trappist Questions part of the show because I can see Post it hauling the bulging sack of Trappist questions up the drive to Lincoln Lodge. If you want to leave a question for the Trap Pack to answer, please do so by the pinned tweet on next or the pin text on tweet. There is a link there. There's also a link in the soap-called show notes, and we are getting through them. We go through them chronologically, but we will come to a question eventually. Unless it's really, really asinine. But we're kind of astronomy people anyways, but it takes a lot for your question not to be answered. Um let's see who this one is from. This is from um quite cheap, cheap stage for me. This um this uh yeah, this this this thin paper, but we'll give that guy a pass. Who's it from? Some of Patrick Duggan, okay, longtime friend of the show. Patrick, I love your stage. I'm only joking. Some of the best men in the envelope I've seen ever. Um, Patrick asks, Hi gents, thanks once again for an outstanding podcast, always informative and entertaining. As a financial advisor with over 20 years' experience, I'm fairly confident that I know what I'm doing when it comes to planning my personal financial affairs. But like the old cobbler and his shoes, I've been thinking of engaging a financial advisor for a health check to confirm that all is indeed well and or that I am on track to achieve my objectives. Is this something that you guys do or would recommend for yourselves? Thank you. Warm regards. PS trapped live in South Africa next year, guys. Hmm, that could be interesting. Um, PPS, Andy, congrats on the book. I just pushed a copy on Amazon and I look forward to the read. So there you go. Well, um I'll go quick. No, I don't know. I I know I I don't need to I don't feel the need to validate my plan with anybody else. I'm pretty careful where it is, but I know that for instance, Alan, you have to lean heavily on Andy because you're not that good with numbers. Is that correct? Am I going too quick on this?
SPEAKER_02It's not about it's not about the numbers, but yeah, we've said I'm sure we've spoken about this before. Yeah, we have now, but oh I yeah, I often get mixed up between really uh being in the pub with you guys and chatting about stuff and broadcasts. Do you know what I mean? Oh no, it's probably more beer. Um so forgive us if we repeat something, some things, but no, that is true. Mr. Andrew Ultra Hart is my financial planner. Uh we don't we we uh he doesn't know that he is, but he has built me financial plans. Look, the thing about it is we all can work the numbers and do the numbers. My god, ChatGPT could do the numbers, just speak into it and it'll give you uh uh at least a rudimentary financial plan. The biggest thing and where the value lies, as we know that with our existing clients, is blind spots, is pushing back on your assumptions, is really questioning some of the things you think or don't think. Um, and one thing about Andrew Hart, as we all know, is he doesn't beat around the bush when he's got an opinion on something, uh he tells you, tells you all about it. So I I mean I don't know. I I think there's just there's different kind of sort of continuum. Like, do I pay a proper financial planner and sit down and they manage the money and everything else? No. But have you got like a trusted advisor, a trusted friend, somebody who is prepared to push back on your ideas and things? I think that's it. I think everyone should have someone like that in their life. Just call it a trusted advisor, uh, with the exception of Nick Lincoln, who wouldn't listen to anything anyone ever said to him ever. Um, but that's that's the thing, it's that I obviously mean Andy, we we meet up and we talk about things, and particularly if there are like events or bigger things I've got to make some big significant decisions on. I must say I found him I found it very helpful.
SPEAKER_04I'll chip in. I know Carl's got to say something. Yeah, I think you're right, Alan. I don't think any financial advisors have ongoing financial advisors. It is that one-off project, financial planning, coach, a bit of a no-person, someone that obviously knows the money and knows you. Um, yeah, so I don't think anyone has ongoing financial advisors. Uh I could be wrong, but I certainly don't think they look after the money. Um, I updated my own financial plan recently. I found it very uh useful uh because obviously I know my situation very well, I know void software very well. Um so I update it every couple of years. Um obviously my life's got you know a few moving parts, young kids and various other things. So I enjoy doing it myself, but I still don't think I will ever pay and engage a financial planner. I obviously have coaches and people that I speak to and ring up when I've got decisions and stuff. So yeah, I've got a got a team of uh hive mind, let's say, but no, I don't have a personal financial planner. Do you want to share the story about that coach, what that coach said to you, Alan, after we had a we had we had a we had a meeting, remember?
SPEAKER_02No. He was saying all your potential's ahead of you. Oh, yeah, yeah. Again, I'm sure we said this. I don't very quickly I think I've recommended him before, uh, Graeme Godfrey. Um he's brilliant, he's a brilliant like executive coach. Did a lot of work uh with him last year, really helped me kind of break through in many ways. But he was talking about fulfilling potential. He said, But mate, you just you've you've achieved a degree of success by anyone's measures, but you simply haven't achieved your full potential. And I told my financial planner Andy Hart this, and he said, Are you kidding me? You have way exceeded your own potential. You were miles ahead of what you were capable of. How the hell? Yeah, so that he brought me right back down to Earth. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03Okay, okay. Good answers, guys. Good answers. Um, well, without any further ado, let's crack on. So what meaning? How about Carl? How about Carl? Oh, for fuck it, sorry. Well, your hand's raised and your brain's still in Spain. Is your hand raised? Do you want to say something something to say, Andy? No, sorry. Carl. Right. Um sorry, Carl. Look, sorry.
SPEAKER_01I I'll uh very briefly, uh Kean in my office does my financial plan. I would say um any clients who have had an exit, I'm calling mine an exit in, right? But uh anybody who's had an exit, they they probably want to see the financial plan way, way, way more than you think they want to see it, right? So because I'm I do look at it quite a lot and I'm fiddling around with it quite a bit. The bit that I was struggling with was um was purpose, was um yeah, purpose, I'd say, is the best way of describing it. This is probably good good time to play the cum by a again. But anyway, I I've uh I'm leaning heavily on uh Tommy Geary, who's uh mentor of mine, and he's my coach. I've uh I've actually made it my business to have uh conversations with a lot of our client advisory panel just on not on business but on kind of bigger stuff on on purpose on on what the next phase looks like. I've thrown myself into absolutely a hundred percent entirely into um the NFP stuff because I'm loving it, um, so as long as that keeps lasting, I I will throw it in. But what I have done is I have engaged um NFP or NLP. NFP.
SPEAKER_03Right, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01Um so I have engaged with with uh Sonia Lennon, who's doing a program called Future Rhythm, and it's all around this. I'm in the middle of the programme, I'm finding it um unbelievably good, and I am going to uh interview Sonia for the Trab Podcast uh to tell everybody a little bit more because it's like financial planning without the finances, it's all about the holistic stuff. Um, but in a program that's designed to challenge you, because I really was challenged, really, really, really was challenged with all of this, and um and still probably am, and still try trying to find my way a little bit, but much clearer now. And the more clearer I get, the more clarity I have, uh just the freer I feel, and and the more I'm absolutely enjoying everything. But we've laughed because I've shared through you know the my own Meta's life plan as I've called it, and Jesus Christ, it's hard work, apart from it costing a lot of money. Like I'm I'm ticking a lot of boxes and I'm wrecked from it. Like so, you know, trying to do everything in the in the immediate aftermath of some of an exit is um it's not good advice, it really isn't. The best advice you can give everyone is just take just take a step back and slow down. Uh yeah, but I'm in a really good, really good place, I'd say, and I'm in a really good place because I have leaned heavily on talking to a lot of people who I trust.
SPEAKER_02Just following up on that, and there's a thread running through a lot of the conversation on this episode, which is interesting, isn't it? That you said it, Carl, I've said a version of it, Andy. Forget about Nick. But um, that it's the conversations, the coaching, whatever you want to call it, the sort of things. And I just think that's a direction of travel we'll be having. You know, that the the money problem is largely solved. We know how to allocate resource. You know, most of your money should be in a particular way. Um, it doesn't take too much to build an act, you know, effectively a cash flow, making sure that I've got enough money dropping into my life at certain points and I predetermined I would need it, a for day-to-day life or for additional capex and stuff. But it's all that other stuff. It's like that's that problem is largely becoming solved. And there's an element of uh you know, forward-thinking financial planners reinventing their role. This idea of a coach, a second opinion, a sounding board, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Now, good financial planners are doing that already to some degree, but I think that's just gonna become bigger and bigger in the future when the the stuff that we generally do and that we deliver then we get paid for can be taken care of, 90% of it by the by the tech. Um so there's there's you know, are we all ready for is every financial planner capable of delivering sort of proper coaching type experiences? I'm gonna suggest not. And maybe that's the you know, instead of taking another exam or something else, maybe that's a thing for us all to just up our skills at. Just a thought.
SPEAKER_01If only you much more elegantly said than I was trying to say, uh, probably throughout the whole episode. But that's exactly my that's exactly my point.
SPEAKER_04If uh if only one of us ran a podcast for exiting entrepreneurs, Carl could share his story there. If only one of us did run watch this space.
SPEAKER_01Oh but uh but uh and we have discussed it, right? But I I need to there's there's stuff I need to get right before I can actually talk about you know what I you know you have to make some of the mistakes, but because I was wondering, right, being being honest, right? Well, why am I putting myself under this pressure, right? But then through all the discussions that I had, because I thrive on the pressure and I don't have now the pressure of am I gonna run out of money, right? It's it's but I need the pressure to to to have a purpose and to to so understanding then that that was okay, that feeling under pressure is okay, um, that's just me, that's in me. The different people will be different, but I need the purpose, I need a I need a a target, I need a goal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and your purpose this is the point. Your purpose has changed now. If if the financial objectives are less, you know, um pressing for you, then what else is there? Because the minute you're done, you say everything in my life is perfect, I don't need to do anything, that's when you have a problem. Yeah, so yeah, it's a whole very interesting dynamic, which is one of the reasons I started that podcast, just having those conversations. And Carl, you Just you're re you're only a few months into it. You don't know what the hell you're gonna feel in a year from now, from from my experience of working with exited entrepreneurs. You know, the entire philosophy in life changes over twelve months or can change over twelve months. So yeah, you've got to just sort of sit in it for a bit and just go through it, get used to it, watch this space. All right.
SPEAKER_03Okay, right. Sorry, I didn't let you go first there, Carl. I'll cut you off. Now we can probably move on to what people call culture.
SPEAKER_01This is IKEA like. Oh, brilliant. Solar panels. I got solar panels. I got solar panels at home, and they're oh my god, they're amazing, right? I'm never gonna pay for electricity again. They're an app. I got I got my um, yeah, it's amazing, it's incredible. Uh I I got this app as well, so my my car has been charged off it. But the AI tool on it is so good that it's saying plug in your car now or turn this off. It's just absolutely incredible. But the reason I put the the solar panels, everyone should future proof themselves and get it. But the company I engaged was through a recommendation. The guy came along, the guys arrived in my house one day, two vans, they were all dressed the same. They just went and they put this thing, the all the panels up on the top of the house in one afternoon, and then they came back about two or three weeks later, uh, and then they connected it all, and it's all very neat and tidy, whatever, right? The service was exceptional. How the guys looked, how they behaved, how they spoke to me, uh, they were all on time, they uh it was just amazing. So, in the world of uh if uh we're talking about AI is going to take over service industries, right? This kind of stuff, right, um, is going to be so valued, and this is how if I was doing um some kind of uh you know, like they're they're sparks basically, they're electricians, right? Like how to stand out in a crowded place. These guys were absolutely sensationally superb to the extent that I just went, This is this is the level of service that every service industry should be at, and they've brought it to bring in solar panels on, and then they have the tech to back it up to make this all really, really special. Just amazing, amazing people.
SPEAKER_02I I think you make a great point there, Carl. In a in anything which is commoditized, and you you could have got those solar panels from anywhere. Standing out is really important. I'm always reminded of a close personal friend of mine, Charlie Mullins, who started Pimlico Plumbers in the UK 20 odd years ago.
SPEAKER_04Him, him joke about it, we joke about it, don't we? You've got to turn up on time.
SPEAKER_02He's a plumber plumbers. But they turn but they turn up with a uniform on, they're really, you know, they're really clean, they do that, they tidy up after themselves, but they do turn, you know, basic things, but you know, generally speaking, when you're hiring a plumber, sometimes you know they don't show up or they show up late or they leave a mess. And that's what he did. He and he charged a premium for it, but you thought, you know what, I just need to get my bathroom fix or something. I don't mind paying 20% more than a going rate because I know they're gonna deliver on it. And he sold for what, I don't know, over 100 million. 170 million or something. 170 million. So he did he did well. So that's the point. I think that's another thing to think about is in a different in a commoditized world, how do you differentiate yourself? And it can be just about you, the tech you use and literally what you look like when you show up and show up on time. That was that. Uh, talking commoditized worlds, my uh culture corner this week is it is a podcast that I've mentioned before, and it's one of my favorites. Um, it's David Senra. David Senra was the original creator of the Founders podcast. He seems to have pivoted a bit more because on Founders, all he did he what he did was he just basically read out uh a synopsis or a summary of a book he's read about a founder and an entrepreneur. I think he's still doing that, but he sort of morphed it across uh to it's just called David Senra podcast. And he does like a classic podcast interview, but but with some serious players. I saw it's just his latest one, is Sam Altman from Chat GPT OpenAI. But the one I uh tuned into a couple of weeks ago is with Travis Kalinick, who was the founder of Uber. And it's if you're interested in anyway about business building, entrepreneurship, the how difficult things can be sometimes, how you've got to operate at the highest level, what excellence looks like. He ended up getting pushed out of his baby, his Uber when they took institutional investment. And he's doing something completely different now, but it's in it, it's in robotics, AI, it's just sounds freaking mind blowing. But I get, I don't know about you, I get inspired. I listen to someone like that speaking for an hour and I think, Jesus, when I when I worry about my problems and the challenges I've had, I think that is nothing compared to some of these guys. So I really liked it. David Senra podcast with Travis Kalinick. Thanks.
SPEAKER_04Superb. I'll be very quick. Um, I don't know if anyone saw it, but Jimmy Carr was back on the Chris Williamson podcast. I do like Jimmy Carr. I saw him this year. He talks about doing two shows a night. That's why he did 300 shows uh uh last year. So he does one at seven, I believe, and one at half nine. So you do need to be there on time. Uh that was superb. Um, yeah, I highly recommend that you watch the Jimmy Carr show. And I am now off to the beach to run after my children. Goodbye, everybody.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks, Ultra. Thanks for doing that. Appreciate it. Okay, so I think we are at the end of episode 104 and uh another episode of Traps Slides Down the U Bender Father Time. Please do like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Please do leave and post a review on iTunes or your podcast app of choice. It does mean a great deal to us. But until the next time, take care out there. We'll see you on the other side. It's goodbye, Addy Os from the Trap Pack. Um, enjoy what's left of your summer. Goodbye. Bye bye. See you, bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02Text the buddy. Just about. Just about, just about. Yeah, it was alright. Yeah, well done, Andy.
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